New Order Handling and Modification Approach

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

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aspTrader wrote:

Acouple thoughts...

1. It's important to distinguish the objective (enable retaining existing order queue position when adding adding size) from the implementation approach (I guess dragging and dropping). IMO, the former is a critical requirement. Perhaps the suggested implementation approach is the only way to do it, perhaps not.It appears some folks don't like the drag and drop approach. I personally don't have a problem with it and if that's the only way to achieve the critical objective (retain existing order size when adding size) then I would say do it.
2. If dragging and dropping is the only way to accomplish the "keep the queue position" objective, then, I wonder if it's possible to have two alternative UI techniques as options selectable within Settings Manager. One setting keeps the exisiting approach. The other setting would invoke the new approach.

I agree that the maintaining order queu position is critical. Seasoned traders will see this approach as a serious competetive advantage. There is nothing worse than watching trades go off at your limit price only find out YOU are not getting filled.

That being said, I have considered havetwo UI approaches but there is some downside to this.

1) Two very different options for usability is bad design in the long term. Creates confusion which results in a complex product to understand. NT does not need any more surface complexity.

2) NT requires more flexibility when it comes to displaying all orders for a certain market/account combination. Currently, NT is restrictive in that you can only have one entry order, X number stops/targets etc. The problem is if there are other orders lingering around (for whatever reason) that don't conform to the current strategy approach, they will not display in the DOM. I feel NT needs to be able to display all orders even if they are not managed by a strategy. Without drag and drop, this is not possible.

I have looked at 15 other DOM products out there and every one of them uses drag and drop.

[Shiva Swinger]

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It seems Drag and Drop is a way of staying in our original position ahead in the queue. That is good, so is there a way of having this as an option without losing the present way. The least "thinking" during trading the better. This drag and drop seems to cater for traders "thinking" during a trade as opposed to executing the trading plan, which Ninja does brilliantly.

Just don't want to lose something before being convinced the new way is better.

[kenjelli]

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I understand you propose removing the capability to move orders with one click on the DOM. I use this constantly when keeping a target ahead of a fast moving market or moving up a trailing stop and consider it a prime feature. Drag and drop is just adding more complexity to this but might work after getting use to it.

Most of my strategies involve stops and targets more than 2.3 points away from entry so they are not visible on the DOM when an order is entered. My DOM is 23 spaces high or 2.3 points in the eRussell. That means I can not reach anything more than 2.3 points away from the present price in order to drag it. One must be able to see a target or stop to drag it. One fix would be to allow scrolling of the DOM beyond present price action. Another would be to allow the number of DOM spaces to be adjusted. I prefer both options for readability and convenience in moving up or down in the DOM.

I am no too keen on removing automatic order size adjustment or any other piece of intelligence. DOM intelligence is of great importance to me to prevent errors in trade management. It is the main reason for having a smart DOM in the first place. Having to manually adjust is a step backward in my view.

I would also like to be able to adjust the overall DOM size to take up less screen space. It now occupies one quarter of the screen which is excessive when working with one screen such as on a laptop.

Thanks for considering our inputs, Ray.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

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Shiva Swinger wrote:

It seems Drag and Drop is a way of staying in our original position ahead in the queue. That is good, so is there a way of having this as an option without losing the present way. The least "thinking" during trading the better. This drag and drop seems to cater for traders "thinking" during a trade as opposed to executing the trading plan, which Ninja does brilliantly.

Just don't want to lose something before being convinced the new way is better.

Believe me, if I could preserve the current interaction and preserve order queue position I would. I have had programmers block all weekend trying resolve this and I am just plain stuck. This is why I am asking the user community what they think.

My current thought process is that the benefits received from preservation of order queue position far outways the innefficiencies of drag and drop. The fact that all other DOM products are drag and drop provide me with some comfort that I would not be imposing an unreasonable approach on current and future NT users.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

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kenjelli wrote:

One fix would be to allow scrolling of the DOM beyond present price action. Another would be to allow the number of DOM spaces to be adjusted.

I am no too keen on removing automatic order size adjustment or any other piece of intelligence. DOM intelligence is of great importance to me to prevent errors in trade management.

You can already see prices off the DOM. Right click, uncheck AutoCenter. You can then scroll as high or low as you wish.

DOM intelligence will be preserved.

[jimmyparky]

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I like to see the one click move as the drag and drag. At cruch time, I think one click is far more superior in accuracy and speed. Drag and drop just adds extra component that can go wrong.

[Shiva Swinger]

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Perhaps you could clarify the benefits ofexecuting this strategy using drag and drop as opposed to the present way.

I place an order for 2 lots with 2 targets and a trailing stop

3 minutes later I place a second order for 2 lots with 2 targets but same trailing stop.

2 minutes later I place another order with 2 lots and trail stop.

AT this stage I have one stop with 6 lots and 6 different targets all unchanged from entry. The trailing stop will be moved as market advances.

With drag and drop am I right in thinking that the trailing stop of 6 lots will be in the queue at the original time of the first stop order of 2 lots.

What about the targets? If they are at different prices and placed at different times where will they be in the queue?

I agree that making options makes for complications. If all other execution platforms are using Drag and drop and Ninja is not then all ninja orders are at a disadvantage to the 15 or more execution platforms out there.

The only thing we cannot see is where we are in the queue. I like to be in a short queue and I never like to give up my place and move to the back of the queue. That's when we send our wives to get something while we keep our position in the queue.

If that is what is happening here then I will have to reconsider Drag and Drop?

[aspTrader]

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A bit off the specific top but still having to do with the UI and Order Handling...

Would it be possible to have a Switch in Settings Manager that could be toggled off and on called something like "Display Queue Position".

If toggled On, this would display an estimated range of queue position values within which the Order is believed to exist.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

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I have another idea...

Have not though through this completely but...

What if orders were highlighted as the active order to manipulate.

Example -

Target1 (highlighted)
Target2
Target3

A single click would only move Target1. If you wanted to move Target2 you would use the mouse scroll wheel to highlight it. Then it could be moved via single click. In other words, rolling the mouse wheel would change the highlighted order to the next one and so on.

Then we could have single click. This would come at the expense of using the scroll wheel to scroll the actual price ladder. Instead, I could add up/down arrows for price ladder scrolling or, having something like CTRL KEY + Scroll wheel.

Comments?

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

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Shiva Swinger wrote:

Perhaps you could clarify the benefits ofexecuting this strategy using drag and drop as opposed to the present way.

I place an order for 2 lots with 2 targets and a trailing stop

3 minutes later I place a second order for 2 lots with 2 targets but same trailing stop.

2 minutes later I place another order with 2 lots and trail stop.

AT this stage I have one stop with 6 lots and 6 different targets all unchanged from entry. The trailing stop will be moved as market advances.

With drag and drop am I right in thinking that the trailing stop of 6 lots will be in the queue at the original time of the first stop order of 2 lots.

What about the targets? If they are at different prices and placed at different times where will they be in the queue?

I agree that making options makes for complications. If all other execution platforms are using Drag and drop and Ninja is not then all ninja orders are at a disadvantage to the 15 or more execution platforms out there.

The only thing we cannot see is where we are in the queue. I like to be in a short queue and I never like to give up my place and move to the back of the queue. That's when we send our wives to get something while we keep our position in the queue.

If that is what is happening here then I will have to reconsider Drag and Drop?

Irrelevant. You currently can't have six differently priced targets with NinjaTrader. You can have only 3 targets. Each target has a different mouse click assignment for modification. If you want six, you run out of assignable mouse click combinations and have to go for a drag and drop approach. NT is not at disadvantage to other platforms in this respect.

[Iza]

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Hi Ray!!

I would not like like the drag and drop at all. This really can cause you to make many mistakes.!!

Thanks for hearing us!!

[gprizevoits]

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So drag and drop will preserveour orderqueue position? I don't really understand how that is possiblesince you've changed prices. Can you explain exactly what that means Ray?

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

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gprizevoits wrote:

So drag and drop will preserveour orderqueue position? I don't really understand how that is possiblesince you've changed prices. Can you explain exactly what that means Ray?

Changing prices does not preserve order queue. Increasing an order size will since NT will add additional orders instead of modifying the original thus preserving order queu. Subsequently, price changes must now be applied to the group of orders representing a specific target. It is this scenario that can cause a problem. When modifying a group of orders, one has to account for a situation where not all ofthe orders modified are truly modified. It is possible that the modification get's rejected for a host of different reasons. If this happens, you will end up with some of the orders at the new price and some at the old price resulting in a splitting of the target order group. There then needs to be a way to be able to modify any/all of the orders that manage the position. This is where the limitations of the current NT approach kick in.

[Shiva Swinger]

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It's simply a manual step and my experience with drag and drop is I guess when I move a file from one place to another and sometimes I make a mistake and put it in the wrong folder due to a slip of the hand or dropping too soon. What could happen in this ninja feature I'm not sure, but murphy's law is always there.?

Whatthe concerns seem to be, drag and drop opens the way for human error. Could you do a quick demo version for us to drive? Maybe it will be easy to live with.

[cody]

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I'd like to see a quick 'drag & drop' demo before deciding as well. I think the 'fat fingers' stuff of dropping orders into prices, when the market is lively MAY cause problems, but honestly dont know. Sometimes, software has clever functions, but in the end , its transparent to the end-user.

I'd like to add two thoughts/questions as well.

1. I'd like to have an idea of how much trading some of the vocal posters actually do. That would give me a better idea of how much experience isput into some of these comments.

2. If NT was going to morph new functions/capabilities, I'd like to see order entry/cancellation speed up. In the end, with the current era of low commissions and $10 ticks, I simply go to the market if my place in queue is lost and I get jumpy. Then if my exit was wrong, Isimply re-enter with the market momentum and try again.