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New Order Handling and Modification Approach

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    New Order Handling and Modification Approach

    Hi all,

    I am very challenged with how NTV5 should operate from an intelligence standpoint. I urge you all to please provide comments as your input will be considered heavily on what I decide to do.

    First the changes -

    - In V5, any order qty increases will be accomplished by adding additional orders as opposed to modifying the existing order. So if you have an entry order for 1 contract and increase it to 2, you will now have 2 entry orders. The value here is that the original order does not get removed for the order queu. I stress that this is a highly valuable approach in that you will gain considerable competetive advantage in getting your orders filled.

    - Carrying on from the above point, when you scale into a position, NT modifies all existing stops and targets. From a visual standpoint this would still happen but now NT will add additional orders to your target. Again, this keeps existing orders in the queu and provides you with a considerable competetive advantage.

    - Stop loss orders can be separated. This means you can have stop losses at multiple levels and individual trail stop parameters on each stop loss

    - From a display standpoint, NT will aggregate all orders so that you will havea clean display. Using the same example, if you have one entry level but it is made of up multiple orders, NT will display this as one order. This keeps things clean and allows you to manage all orders at this price level as one order unit.

    - You will now be able to scale in at multiple price levels to enter a position.

    To manage all of these orders in real-time is very complex and it pushes the current NT appproach. Specifically -

    - The single click order price change capability does not fit with the above model. NT would now need to be drag and drop. This means instead of clicking on a new price to modify an order, one would have to click, drag to new price then drop to accomplish order price changes.

    - Currently when changing the order size of target 1, NT will automatically adjust the order size of target 2 accordingly. With the new approach (without going into every detail) NT would not be able to accomplish this 100% of the time. Therefore, I would remove this piece of intelligence. Users would have to do this manually.

    - Currently, all targets are classified as Target1, Target2 etc...This would likely be removed and be replaced with a single classification as TARGET. As a result of this, you could actually have more than 3 targets now.

    So here are the questions...Speak up or forever hold your peace!

    In order to gain the advantage of leaving orders in the queu when possible, are you willing to use a drag/drop order modification approach instead of the single click approach?

    For those who like changing the order sizes between targets, are you willing to now do this manually?

    Thanks for listening.

    Ray

    RayNinjaTrader Customer Service

    #2
    imported post

    I only use NT for automated trading, so I don't care much about the user interface.

    However I would like more options for automated trading:

    1. When I send a CLOSEALL/CANELALL I would like to see the closing fill price of my currently open strategy in the PUF.

    2. I would like an option to query the account balance. That's crucial for automatically calculating position sizes.

    3. I would like an option for choosing a different position size with any existing strategy in the order file. Currently I have 1000 strategies defined, just to cover all possible position sizes I want to auto-trade. That's really no fun.

    Regards,

    Up

    Comment


      #3
      imported post

      Notwithstandingthat tradeoffs are tough and thatRay is smarter than average, both of the tradeoffs identified cause a trader to slow down a beat, which may not be an issue much of the time but could be in a fast moving market whenvolume isrocking.

      I may be a complete klutz, butmy accuracy in dragging and dropping scares even me. My hand-to-eye coordination being what it is,trying to do it really quickly in an adrenaline-charged moment scares me even more.

      Having to do things "manually" usually resultsin trying to find a different way to do it that doesn't involve "manual". If there is no other way to do it, it stands out as a potential issue.

      Just my two cents (less fees and commisions)

      Comment


        #4
        imported post

        I don't know how you invisioned the dragging and dropping of orders but maybe you could possibly add levels to the top and bottom of the price matirx in the superdom window that show stop and target prices. Regards if this is what you had invisioned, I'd like the ability to see my stops and targets in the price matrix.

        Comment


          #5
          imported post

          This would be the difference,

          Currently

          Target 1 at 1000, want to move to 1001, you would simply click at 1001.

          Proposed

          Your would click and hold the mouse at 1000, drag to 1001 then let go of your mouse.

          It is slower and not the approach that I prefer but one must put it into context. Changing order prices is not something one does 10 x a second. It's also easy to do when there are only a max of 3 targets allowed. That is the current NT. When adding the capability to preserve order queu status, additional target orders can potentially be added. This means that there could be more than 3 actual orders working. Here is a real time example -

          You have 3 targets. You scale in. Now target 3 has 2 orders since one was added to reflect new position size.The DOM displays that you have 3 targetsbut there are 4 actual working orders (2 at target 3). You now modify the price of target 3.There is a possibility that the exchange/broker rejects the modification of one of the two orders at target 3.The DOM nowhas to display that there are 4 separately priced targets. If this happens,current NT approach does not have mouse combinations for modifying a 4th target with a single click. Therefore, having a drag and drop approach allows one to modify each individual target ifrequired.

          The same problem also exists for those who want to submit multiple limit orders to scaleinto a position. Need a way tobe able to modify each individual scale order.

          Ray
          RayNinjaTrader Customer Service

          Comment


            #6
            imported post

            Being able to scale into multiple price positions is a very good idea. I think trade maven has had that capability. I have no problem with dragging and dropping.

            Comment


              #7
              imported post

              I have to agree with Lupus thatusing drag and drop while 'under fire' is somewhat scary. Of the new features mentioned by Ray the only one that really matters to me is the ability to scale in to a position at different price levels. One simple way to implement this in the UI would be to use a 'Control-click' or a 'Shift-click' for adding asecond entry level. I have been wanting this for a long time and hope it can be implemented.

              thx

              Comment


                #8
                imported post

                Dragging and dropping to change the order size ?
                We all have our priorities, but forcing the user to drag and drop the price rather than just click to change ... Im not a fan.

                Comment


                  #9
                  imported post

                  Scott wrote:
                  Dragging and dropping to change the order size ?
                  We all have our priorities, but forcing the user to drag and drop the price rather than just click to change ... Im not a fan.
                  Not order size, just price.

                  So if you have had a target order resting for 20 mins, you are near the front of the line to get filled. You add to a position which results in that order needing to be modified. You would rather the order be taken out of the queu, modified and then placed back in at the end of the line?


                  RayNinjaTrader Customer Service

                  Comment


                    #10
                    imported post

                    ckapilla wrote:
                    I have to agree with Lupus thatusing drag and drop while 'under fire' is somewhat scary. Of the new features mentioned by Ray the only one that really matters to me is the ability to scale in to a position at different price levels. One simple way to implement this in the UI would be to use a 'Control-click' or a 'Shift-click' for adding asecond entry level. I have been wanting this for a long time and hope it can be implemented.

                    thx
                    What is interesting is that every other product out there is drag and drop. NT is the only one that I am aware of that is not.
                    RayNinjaTrader Customer Service

                    Comment


                      #11
                      imported post

                      Ithink adding the scale-in feature will be very valuable, but drag and drop to modify existing orders in not a good idea when you are trading 5 minutes timeframes or faster in active markets. I tried that before with TM and made several unwanted trades.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        imported post

                        Drag and Drop is in my opinion a step backwards. For years I have placed an order with a stop and 2 targets manually. Then Ninja came and it did it automatically, no mistakes. When I need to make a change if I have to drag and drop I can make mistakes. They can cost big mistake money. The mouse can stick right when it hurts. My finger can slip or a nervous twitch will drop it in the wrong place.

                        Keep it simple is my vote. no drag and drop.

                        I've had my say now I can forever be peaceful.


                        Comment


                          #13
                          imported post

                          meyer99 wrote:
                          Ithink adding the scale-in feature will be very valuable, but drag and drop to modify existing orders in not a good idea when you are trading 5 minutes timeframes or faster in active markets. I tried that before with TM and made several unwanted trades.
                          Unfortunately you can't have both. That's the unfortunate part about it. That's why I am raising the issue.
                          RayNinjaTrader Customer Service

                          Comment


                            #14
                            imported post

                            Shiva Swinger wrote:
                            Drag and Drop is in my opinion a step backwards. For years I have placed an order with a stop and 2 targets manually. Then Ninja came and it did it automatically, no mistakes. When I need to make a change if I have to drag and drop I can make mistakes. They can cost big mistake money. The mouse can stick right when it hurts. My finger can slip or a nervous twitch will drop it in the wrong place.

                            Keep it simple is my vote. no drag and drop.

                            I've had my say now I can forever be peaceful.


                            Ninja will still do that. Please enlighten me on how dragging and dropping of an order can result in a mistake. I want to make sure I have all the angles.
                            RayNinjaTrader Customer Service

                            Comment


                              #15
                              imported post

                              Acouple thoughts...
                              1. It's important to distinguish the objective (enable retaining existing order queue position when adding adding size) from the implementation approach (I guess dragging and dropping). IMO, the former is a critical requirement. Perhaps the suggested implementation approach is the only way to do it, perhaps not.It appears some folks don't like the drag and drop approach. I personally don't have a problem with it and if that's the only way to achieve the critical objective (retain existing order size when adding size) then I would say do it.
                              2. If dragging and dropping is the only way to accomplish the "keep the queue position" objective, then, I wonder if it's possible to have two alternative UI techniques as options selectable within Settings Manager. One setting keeps the exisiting approach. The other setting would invoke the new approach.

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