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two rithmic accounts connected at same time

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    #16
    1) Well, that does not make sense to me. If the Tradovate connection Technology allows simultaneous connections, then why cannot Ninja Desktop use it???

    It can't be that difficult...


    2) If I write my own adapter with the Rithmic C# API, not for data feed, but to place trade copy orders and manage positions, each account connection takes one set of credentials.

    ...isn't that essentially a login to Rithmic for that account? That makes sense to me, that each separate account has a login/credential?

    This is different than sub-accounts.


    I don't know why this appears to be so complicated or difficult. ???


    For example, Expert Trading Programmers has a stand alone trade copier that will copy across multiple Rithmic Accounts...maybe you can ask them what their "secret" is.....???


    Are they breaking Rithmic's Agreements and Policies?


    What you tell me does not seem coherent with other information.

    :-)


    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by llanqui View Post
      1) Well, that does not make sense to me. If the Tradovate connection Technology allows simultaneous connections, then why cannot Ninja Desktop use it???
      Huh?

      The NinjaTrader desktop does use it.

      I'm not sure where you're confused. The NT8 desktop versions allow unlimited
      connections if (and only if) those connections are all using the new Tradovate
      based 'NinjaTrader' connection type. Isn't that clear?

      Have you seen the Connections configuration dialog?
      Have you seen the list of Available connections?
      Have you noticed a new connection type named 'NinjaTrader'?
      (I mean, that's what we're talking about, right?)

      The connection type 'NinjaTrader' is brand new for 8.1.x.x desktop versions and is
      based upon the Tradovate connection technology. (Actually, I see this connection
      type on 8.0.28.0, too, but I can't use it because I'm still running Windows 7, the
      Tradovate connection technology uses an web API not available in Windows 7).

      The connection type 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage' is legacy and has always
      been around. (I presume this code is probably 20+ years old, but it will not be
      getting any rewrites to allow multiple connections.)

      These are completely different adapters. The newer 'NinjaTrader' adapter allows
      unlimited simultaneous connections, the older 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage'
      adapter is limited to one connection at a time.

      When you purchase prop firm eval accounts, they must be explicitly defined
      to use just one of these connection types, they are not interchangeable.

      Apex/Rithmic accounts are not interchangeable with Apex/Tradovate accounts.
      You purchase one or the other, and you cannot switch it after the purchase.

      Why are you confused? The birth of the new 'NinjaTrader' adapter is because
      of the Tradovate purchase. This adapter type specifically allows an unlimited
      number of simultaneous connections. To get that benefit, you must explicitly
      purchase eval accounts designated for use with Tradovate, which during the
      connection setup for that Tradovate account, you must explicitly use the
      connection type named 'NinjaTrader'. You setup as many connections to as
      many Tradovate eval accounts from as many prop firms as you want, but
      they will all use the same 'NinjaTrader' connection type (not Rithmic) and
      they can all connect simultaneously. Yep, they can all be connected at
      the same time.
      That's a critical difference, and for many folks, it will
      make Tradovate based prop firm subscriptions a superior choice over
      Rithmic based prop firm subscriptions. That's why Apex offers both.

      The NinjaTrader folks are removing the need for Rithmic from the picture
      completely by providing the newer Tradovate technology based adapter
      named 'NinjaTrader'. To me, it looks like the Tradovate acquisition has
      allowed NT to build on an alternative to Rithmic's prop firm support mgmt
      business.

      The confusion might be this: the Tradovate connection technology is used
      in the newer connection type named 'NinjaTrader' -- this new connection
      type called 'NinjaTrader' does not use the Rithmic API at all.

      Originally posted by llanqui View Post
      2) If I write my own adapter with the Rithmic C# API, not for data feed, but to place trade copy orders and manage positions, each account connection takes one set of credentials.

      ...isn't that essentially a login to Rithmic for that account? That makes sense to me, that each separate account has a login/credential?

      This is different than sub-accounts.

      I don't know why this appears to be so complicated or difficult. ???
      You are free to write your own trade copier in whatever manner you see fit.

      Originally posted by llanqui View Post
      For example, Expert Trading Programmers has a stand alone trade copier that will copy across multiple Rithmic Accounts...maybe you can ask them what their "secret" is.....???
      I guess they're using the Rithmic C# API directly. It looks like this particular
      trade copier product would not work with eval accounts which are not Rithmic
      based. That is, specifically, it would not work with Apex/Tradovate accounts.

      Their website specifically says,

      "Regardless of the trading platform users prefer—be it NinjaTrader, MetaTrader,
      TradingView, or any other system—as long as it operates with a Rithmic connection,
      our Trade Copier can effortlessly interface with it."

      That sounds like Rithmic only thing, right?

      Originally posted by llanqui View Post
      Are they breaking Rithmic's Agreements and Policies?
      I imagine Rithmic agreements with the Expert Trading Programmers folks
      are different than the agreements they have in place with NT.

      Me?

      I suspect NT mgmt does not care to update their agreements and rewrite
      the 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage' adapter to allow multiple connections.

      I suspect this is purely a business decision (the technical aspects are being
      ignored) made to promote and support the business desire to migrate users
      to the newer Tradovate based connection.

      Why? Because the benefit to the user who buys Apex/Tradovate and
      Legends/Tradovate and TopStep/Tradovate and Leeloo/Tradovate is
      that the user can connect to all of these accounts at all these prop firms
      simultaneously, with no limitations whatsoever.

      Rithmic can't do that. Er, I mean, senior NT mgmt probably doesn't want to
      update the Rithmic adapter to allow simultaneous connections. Sure, it's
      technically possible to do that, but they don't care to, because it's a business
      decision to bypass Rithmic and provide competing order management software
      for prop firm accounts based on the codebase from their Tradovate acquisition.

      I mean ...
      The Rithmic connection type is now their competition, and NinjaTrader would
      probably love to overtake Rithmic's prop firm order management business.
      But to do that requires NT users to stop buying Rithmic based eval accounts
      from the various prop firms. NT mgmt would surely love for each Rithmic
      based prop firm to sell a Tradovate based eval account along side their
      legacy Rithmic eval account offerings.

      Once users understand the enormous advantage of Tradovate based prop
      accounts (unlimited simultaneous connections for all prop accounts from an
      unlimited number of prop firms), you'll see fewer and fewer users buying
      the older outdated legacy Rithmic accounts that only allow one connection
      at a time.

      This is competition. This is a good thing.

      Make sense?

      -=o=-

      Also,
      If fewer and fewer NT users purchased Rithmic based prop accounts, then
      the Expert Trading Programmers 'trade copy any Rithmic account, but only
      Rithmic accounts' will become its own limitation.

      Last edited by bltdavid; 03-14-2025, 11:21 PM. Reason: typos

      Comment


        #18
        Ok, well, can you tell me, very simply, is there a way for me to connect to APEX and Amp Rithmic at the same time?

        That is all I'm looking for.

        It should be clear that I'm not interested in the Tradovate platform.

        Simple please, for my monkey brain.




        Comment


          #19
          On another note....

          Some time ago I asked Ninja Brokerage to open an account for my retirement IRA LLC, they said they could not do it. Amp had no problem,.

          I have not looked recently but Amp also then had lower transaction costs, per trade. For a scalper these add up.

          Then I would compare the day trading margin requirements.

          And what is the infrastructure?

          I already mentioned I had (latency) problems with CQG. Those disappeared when I went to Rithmic.

          Rithmic is used by professional traders. For a little more each month it is worth it..

          So, this is what is important to me.



          If Ninja will open accounts for my Trading LLC, if it is competitive at the professional level (latency, order fills, robustness), and if their fees are not higher, then I'll open an account with them.

          For a scalper the speed of the transaction, the latency, the speed of the fills, etc. is critical.

          Someone who is not a scalper does not need a fast, robust, architecture.








          Comment


            #20
            Ok, looks like the adapter you mentioned is only for Ninja Brokerage accounts.



            Last edited by llanqui; 03-15-2025, 08:46 AM.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by llanqui View Post
              Ok, well, can you tell me, very simply, is there a way for me to connect to APEX and Amp Rithmic at the same time?
              I think so. You're in luck. Awhile back you said this,

              Originally posted by llanqui View Post
              ** I've owned a multi-broker, lifetime,license of Ninja since 2010, more or less.
              That means you have an older grandfathered M/B lifetime license key.
              (That's the only reason you're able to do this.)

              Ultimately, you might need AMP's help, but it's still pretty simple.

              [After you import your M/B lifetime key into your member account at NinjaTrader.com,
              you should be all set to use newer 8.1.x.x NinjaTrader desktop software. Just make
              sure the 'Multi-provider' checkbox is enabled at Tools > Options > General.]

              Pull down the Connections menu on Control Center, click on 'configure' in the lower
              right corner. That dialog should be showing you a lot of connection types in the
              Available list. Among others, you should see these two,

              Rithmic
              Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage


              You should see the solo 'Rithmic' name because of your older g/f M/B license key.
              (It's not available to license purchasers who bought after July 2014.)

              Step 1 is setup your APEX connection to use 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage'.
              Step 2 is setup your AMP connection to use 'Rithmic'.

              But first ...
              In order for AMP to use 'Rithmic', you may need to contact AMP and ask them
              to switch your brokerage account from CQG to Rithmic. Since you have an older
              grandfathered M/B license key, they should be willing to do this. (Btw, using Rithmic
              at AMP might cost extra, I dunno. Eg, NTB/Continuum is free, but last I knew,
              using NTB/Rithmic is an extra $10/mon; so beware AMP might have similar fee.)

              After AMP switches your account to Rithmic, update your AMP connection to
              use the 'Rithmic' connection type. (If AMP has already set your account to use
              Rithmic, then great, just do Step 2 above, no need to contact AMP.)

              -=o=-

              You can't make APEX and AMP use the same connection type, if they were both
              setup as 'Rithmic' or as 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage', you would be hit by
              the one-connection limit.

              But, since APEX is setup as 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage' and AMP is setup
              as 'Rithmic', these are seen as different, and you can connect to both at the same
              time.

              Wa-lah!

              Last edited by bltdavid; 03-16-2025, 10:00 PM. Reason: emphasize this only works for older grandfathered M/B license keys

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by llanqui View Post
                It should be clear that I'm not interested in the Tradovate platform.
                I understand.

                But, just to eliminate all confusion, buying Tradovate-based Apex
                eval accounts has nothing to do with using the Tradovate platform.

                Whether you buy Apex/Rithmic or Apex/Tradovate, both account
                types are traded using the NinjaTrader 8.1.x.x desktop platform.

                Tradovate is not just a platform, it is also a connection technology.
                It's possible to use the connection technology part while ignoring
                the platform part.

                Just saying.


                Last edited by bltdavid; 03-16-2025, 10:05 PM. Reason: typo

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by NinjaTrader_Clayton View Post
                  The only way to have a 2nd Rithmic-based connection active within One platform is if the user purchased a Lifetime License Key before July of 2024 so that they are Grandfathered into the old agreements from that time.
                  Whoops, shouldn't that be July of 2014, not July of 2024?

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Thanks David,

                    no more confusion

                    I signed up for an Apex Tradorvate and it works ok with Ninja, as you stated. It allows two connection and different computers but the Trade Performance gets confused on the computer that does not have the last trade. And, I had it disconnect, et cetera.


                    Also, it seems slower than Rithmic, but I would have to look at the execution logs....Rithmic is a DMA routing....which means theorders are routed directly (Direct Market Access) to the CME trading queue. This is why I prefer it.

                    If the order routing is not DMA, is not direct to CME, then who knows what path the orders go, or who along the route could potentially manipulate the order flow to their favor. (aka Robin Hood).

                    Can happen with Futures if there is not DMA.

                    Probably not a big deal for a scalper... :-)

                    Will try your suggestion to use two different adapters for Rithmic accounts.

                    Many thanks :-)


                    Comment

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