two rithmic accounts connected at same time

[llanqui]

1) Well, that does not make sense to me. If the Tradovate connection Technology allows simultaneous connections, then why cannot Ninja Desktop use it???

It can't be that difficult...


2) If I write my own adapter with the Rithmic C# API, not for data feed, but to place trade copy orders and manage positions, each account connection takes one set of credentials.

...isn't that essentially a login to Rithmic for that account? That makes sense to me, that each separate account has a login/credential?

This is different than sub-accounts.


I don't know why this appears to be so complicated or difficult. ???


For example, Expert Trading Programmers has a stand alone trade copier that will copy across multiple Rithmic Accounts...maybe you can ask them what their "secret" is.....???


Are they breaking Rithmic's Agreements and Policies?


What you tell me does not seem coherent with other information.

:-)

[bltdavid]

1) Well, that does not make sense to me. If the Tradovate connection Technology allows simultaneous connections, then why cannot Ninja Desktop use it???

Huh?

The NinjaTrader desktop does use it.

I'm not sure where you're confused. The NT8 desktop versions allow unlimited
connections if (and only if) those connections are all using the new Tradovate
based 'NinjaTrader' connection type. Isn't that clear?

Have you seen the Connections configuration dialog?
Have you seen the list of Available connections?
Have you noticed a new connection type named 'NinjaTrader'?
(I mean, that's what we're talking about, right?)

The connection type 'NinjaTrader' is brand new for 8.1.x.x desktop versions and is
based upon the Tradovate connection technology. (Actually, I see this connection
type on 8.0.28.0, too, but I can't use it because I'm still running Windows 7, the
Tradovate connection technology uses an web API not available in Windows 7).

The connection type 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage' is legacy and has always
been around. (I presume this code is probably 20+ years old, but it will not be
getting any rewrites to allow multiple connections.)

These are completely different adapters. The newer 'NinjaTrader' adapter allows
unlimited simultaneous connections, the older 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage'
adapter is limited to one connection at a time.

When you purchase prop firm eval accounts, they must be explicitly defined
to use just one of these connection types, they are not interchangeable.

Apex/Rithmic accounts are not interchangeable with Apex/Tradovate accounts.
You purchase one or the other, and you cannot switch it after the purchase.

Why are you confused? The birth of the new 'NinjaTrader' adapter is because
of the Tradovate purchase. This adapter type specifically allows an unlimited
number of simultaneous connections. To get that benefit, you must explicitly
purchase eval accounts designated for use with Tradovate, which during the
connection setup for that Tradovate account, you must explicitly use the
connection type named 'NinjaTrader'. You setup as many connections to as
many Tradovate eval accounts from as many prop firms as you want, but
they will all use the same 'NinjaTrader' connection type (not Rithmic) and
they can all connect simultaneously. Yep, they can all be connected at
the same time. That's a critical difference, and for many folks, it will
make Tradovate based prop firm subscriptions a superior choice over
Rithmic based prop firm subscriptions. That's why Apex offers both.

The NinjaTrader folks are removing the need for Rithmic from the picture
completely by providing the newer Tradovate technology based adapter
named 'NinjaTrader'. To me, it looks like the Tradovate acquisition has
allowed NT to build on an alternative to Rithmic's prop firm support mgmt
business.

The confusion might be this: the Tradovate connection technology is used
in the newer connection type named 'NinjaTrader' -- this new connection
type called 'NinjaTrader' does not use the Rithmic API at all.

2) If I write my own adapter with the Rithmic C# API, not for data feed, but to place trade copy orders and manage positions, each account connection takes one set of credentials.

...isn't that essentially a login to Rithmic for that account? That makes sense to me, that each separate account has a login/credential?

This is different than sub-accounts.

I don't know why this appears to be so complicated or difficult. ???

You are free to write your own trade copier in whatever manner you see fit.

For example, Expert Trading Programmers has a stand alone trade copier that will copy across multiple Rithmic Accounts...maybe you can ask them what their "secret" is.....???

I guess they're using the Rithmic C# API directly. It looks like this particular
trade copier product would not work with eval accounts which are not Rithmic
based. That is, specifically, it would not work with Apex/Tradovate accounts.

Their website specifically says,

"Regardless of the trading platform users prefer—be it NinjaTrader, MetaTrader,
TradingView, or any other system—as long as it operates with a Rithmic connection,
our Trade Copier can effortlessly interface with it."

That sounds like Rithmic only thing, right?

Are they breaking Rithmic's Agreements and Policies?

I imagine Rithmic agreements with the Expert Trading Programmers folks
are different than the agreements they have in place with NT.

Me?

I suspect NT mgmt does not care to update their agreements and rewrite
the 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage' adapter to allow multiple connections.

I suspect this is purely a business decision (the technical aspects are being
ignored) made to promote and support the business desire to migrate users
to the newer Tradovate based connection.

Why? Because the benefit to the user who buys Apex/Tradovate and
Legends/Tradovate and TopStep/Tradovate and Leeloo/Tradovate is
that the user can connect to all of these accounts at all these prop firms
simultaneously, with no limitations whatsoever.

Rithmic can't do that. Er, I mean, senior NT mgmt probably doesn't want to
update the Rithmic adapter to allow simultaneous connections. Sure, it's
technically possible to do that, but they don't care to, because it's a business
decision to bypass Rithmic and provide competing order management software
for prop firm accounts based on the codebase from their Tradovate acquisition.

I mean ...
The Rithmic connection type is now their competition, and NinjaTrader would
probably love to overtake Rithmic's prop firm order management business.
But to do that requires NT users to stop buying Rithmic based eval accounts
from the various prop firms. NT mgmt would surely love for each Rithmic
based prop firm to sell a Tradovate based eval account along side their
legacy Rithmic eval account offerings.

Once users understand the enormous advantage of Tradovate based prop
accounts (unlimited simultaneous connections for all prop accounts from an
unlimited number of prop firms), you'll see fewer and fewer users buying
the older outdated legacy Rithmic accounts that only allow one connection
at a time.

This is competition. This is a good thing.

Make sense?

-=o=-

Also,
If fewer and fewer NT users purchased Rithmic based prop accounts, then
the Expert Trading Programmers 'trade copy any Rithmic account, but only
Rithmic accounts' will become its own limitation.

[llanqui]

Ok, well, can you tell me, very simply, is there a way for me to connect to APEX and Amp Rithmic at the same time?

That is all I'm looking for.

It should be clear that I'm not interested in the Tradovate platform.

Simple please, for my monkey brain.

[llanqui]

On another note....

Some time ago I asked Ninja Brokerage to open an account for my retirement IRA LLC, they said they could not do it. Amp had no problem,.

I have not looked recently but Amp also then had lower transaction costs, per trade. For a scalper these add up.

Then I would compare the day trading margin requirements.

And what is the infrastructure?

I already mentioned I had (latency) problems with CQG. Those disappeared when I went to Rithmic.

Rithmic is used by professional traders. For a little more each month it is worth it..

So, this is what is important to me.



If Ninja will open accounts for my Trading LLC, if it is competitive at the professional level (latency, order fills, robustness), and if their fees are not higher, then I'll open an account with them.

For a scalper the speed of the transaction, the latency, the speed of the fills, etc. is critical.

Someone who is not a scalper does not need a fast, robust, architecture.

[llanqui]

Ok, looks like the adapter you mentioned is only for Ninja Brokerage accounts.

[bltdavid]

Ok, well, can you tell me, very simply, is there a way for me to connect to APEX and Amp Rithmic at the same time?

I think so. You're in luck. Awhile back you said this,

** I've owned a multi-broker, lifetime,license of Ninja since 2010, more or less.

That means you have an older grandfathered M/B lifetime license key.
(That's the only reason you're able to do this.)

Ultimately, you might need AMP's help, but it's still pretty simple.

[After you import your M/B lifetime key into your member account at NinjaTrader.com,
you should be all set to use newer 8.1.x.x NinjaTrader desktop software. Just make
sure the 'Multi-provider' checkbox is enabled at Tools > Options > General.]

Pull down the Connections menu on Control Center, click on 'configure' in the lower
right corner. That dialog should be showing you a lot of connection types in the
Available list. Among others, you should see these two,

Rithmic
Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage

You should see the solo 'Rithmic' name because of your older g/f M/B license key.
(It's not available to license purchasers who bought after July 2014.)

Step 1 is setup your APEX connection to use 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage'.
Step 2 is setup your AMP connection to use 'Rithmic'.

But first ...
In order for AMP to use 'Rithmic', you may need to contact AMP and ask them
to switch your brokerage account from CQG to Rithmic. Since you have an older
grandfathered M/B license key, they should be willing to do this. (Btw, using Rithmic
at AMP might cost extra, I dunno. Eg, NTB/Continuum is free, but last I knew,
using NTB/Rithmic is an extra $10/mon; so beware AMP might have similar fee.)

After AMP switches your account to Rithmic, update your AMP connection to
use the 'Rithmic' connection type. (If AMP has already set your account to use
Rithmic, then great, just do Step 2 above, no need to contact AMP.)

-=o=-

You can't make APEX and AMP use the same connection type, if they were both
setup as 'Rithmic' or as 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage', you would be hit by
the one-connection limit.

But, since APEX is setup as 'Rithmic for NinjaTrader Brokerage' and AMP is setup
as 'Rithmic', these are seen as different, and you can connect to both at the same
time.

Wa-lah!

[bltdavid]

It should be clear that I'm not interested in the Tradovate platform.

I understand.

But, just to eliminate all confusion, buying Tradovate-based Apex
eval accounts has nothing to do with using the Tradovate platform.

Whether you buy Apex/Rithmic or Apex/Tradovate, both account
types are traded using the NinjaTrader 8.1.x.x desktop platform.

Tradovate is not just a platform, it is also a connection technology.
It's possible to use the connection technology part while ignoring
the platform part.

Just saying.

[bltdavid]

The only way to have a 2nd Rithmic-based connection active within One platform is if the user purchased a Lifetime License Key before July of 2024 so that they are Grandfathered into the old agreements from that time.

Whoops, shouldn't that be July of 2014, not July of 2024?

[llanqui]

Thanks David,

no more confusion

I signed up for an Apex Tradorvate and it works ok with Ninja, as you stated. It allows two connection and different computers but the Trade Performance gets confused on the computer that does not have the last trade. And, I had it disconnect, et cetera.


Also, it seems slower than Rithmic, but I would have to look at the execution logs....Rithmic is a DMA routing....which means theorders are routed directly (Direct Market Access) to the CME trading queue. This is why I prefer it.

If the order routing is not DMA, is not direct to CME, then who knows what path the orders go, or who along the route could potentially manipulate the order flow to their favor. (aka Robin Hood).

Can happen with Futures if there is not DMA.

Probably not a big deal for a scalper... :-)

Will try your suggestion to use two different adapters for Rithmic accounts.

Many thanks :-)