Windows Updates causing NT8.1.x to generate new machine ID - unstable domino effect

[danmarmu]

I would like to add an upvote for this particular issue. Machine IDS should be used for when a substantial change has been made, not regular software updates. I have had this happen a few times now and it is annoying

[NinjaTrader_BrandonH]

Hello danmarmu,

Thanks for your notes.

I have added your vote to this feature request.

You'll find a note regarding the feature request in the release notes when the feature is implemented.

[backtester831]

Thanks for your input @backtester831..... I am about to rebuild from scratch... everything.

I haven't been using Ninjatrader for 15 years, but if you are right then it is about time that they (NT) ESCALATE this issue to THE TOP PRIORITY FOR DEVELOPMENT .. enough is enough! I have been using NT8 for a couple of years since 2021, and although I have had my share of all the normal NT8 problems such as performance issues, I have not had any issue that was even close to being as big of a problem as this MID (Machine ID) thing has become for me recently. It is hard for me to imagine at any time in my 30 year career in IT primarily as a software engineer and software engineering leadership, that I or the company I worked for at the time would have ever allowed a problem that created this level of instability and cascading blast radius to continue unchecked. For the 2 years that I have used the Ninjatrader platform, I have been a big fan of the software for all of its capabilities even with the performance issues I have experienced, because they were all, with some effort, understandable and rectifiable. This issue however, is in my opinion, an issue of negligence on the part of decision makers at Ninjatrader because they have ignored a stability issue that undermines the integrity of the system, and the trust of their customer base. I do understand that the MID was created to support licensing of NT and products in the ecosystem and to assist in providing a level of security to the Ninjatrader platform and the user's data. However, what has come about is that this has become a defective ANTIFEATURE that the whole ecosystem relies on and experiences maleffects from. It may have been designed well for the computing world in which it was originally developed, but the underlying architecture of how it updates is very obviously antiquated in today's computing environment. I am baffled by the fact that NT leadership would allow this kind of a defect to continue without (a) giving their customers the ability to opt out of this defective ANTIFEATURE and lock their machine ID even if it were to mean that they temporarily could not import any new add-ons, and (b) to escalate these MID problems to the very top of their product development backlog and roadmap. If at any time in my software engineering career I had been in the line of influence or responsibility for a product that had an instability issue of this nature and blast radius, I would have personally deemed it as of a critical level and somehow managed to make it a must-fix top priority for my team.... and having the understanding that I do now about how hypersensitive this thing is and how combined with OS updates that it could compound the damage and friction level of customers, I believe I would have pressed for an emergency patch release to mitigate the effects of it and provide software owners with the ability to stabilize their own systems which they paid for. The fact that this has been ignored for 15 years erodes my trust in the product leadership/management team at NT and leads me to question the competence of who ever has for many years allowed this defect to continue unchecked. For NT leadership to continue to allow years to go by where customers and vendors have been impacted the way I have been in this episode is, in my opinion, incompetence and unacceptable.

Did you change anything with your computer?

Machine ID is a calculated value by Windows based on the hardware of your computer. So if you were to plug in a new harddrive, that would likely cause machine ID to change. But external USB sticks shouldn't, so maybe something's wrong with your PC or the way it's handling the USB.

There's also many vendors that know about the machine ID problem and have their own authentication systems. For example both Ninjacators and Apex indicators don't use machine ID at all. Many other vendors don't either.

Also, NinjaTrader may already be working on a machine ID alternative for vendor licensing. They've already switching over license keys to the new login, so wouldn't be surprised to see that for vendor licensing as well. Ninja already said they're working on vendor licensing for the web platform, so I suspect that will carry over to the desktop as well, whenever it's ready.

[xiinteractive]

Did you change anything with your computer?

Machine ID is a calculated value by Windows based on the hardware of your computer. So if you were to plug in a new harddrive, that would likely cause machine ID to change. But external USB sticks shouldn't, so maybe something's wrong with your PC or the way it's handling the USB.

There's also many vendors that know about the machine ID problem and have their own authentication systems. For example both Ninjacators and Apex indicators don't use machine ID at all. Many other vendors don't either.

Also, NinjaTrader may already be working on a machine ID alternative for vendor licensing. They've already switching over license keys to the new login, so wouldn't be surprised to see that for vendor licensing as well. Ninja already said they're working on vendor licensing for the web platform, so I suspect that will carry over to the desktop as well, whenever it's ready.

I appreciate your interest and comments.

the NT MID (machine id) according to an above post by NT Support is calculated by more than just hardware.
For my problem this morning, as I said, happened within an hour, and the only changes were MS OneDrive settings and removing a USB stick.
Im baffled. The only way I can think to explain it is that MS Windows has evolved and there are unintended consequences where NT's MID is involved.
However you slice this thing, the NT MID is just too hypersensitive to me to be such an integral part of my trading platform and I will take steps to isolate it as incrementally as I am able.

At this point my plan is to take a long walk and when I return I am going to start with a new 1 TB SSD M2 and rebuild my trading PC from scratch. This one will use the latest version of Ninjatrader.
Once this is completed, I will make attempts to get my trade data back from the old drives and backups by booting to the old drive instead. Hopefully I can export the trade data and store it separately as that is something I have needed to do for a while.

Thank you for your concern.

[backtester831]

However you slice this thing, the NT MID is just too hypersensitive to me to be such an integral part of my trading platform and I will take steps to isolate it as incrementally as I am able.

Why not just tell your 3rd party indicator vendors the new machine ID and move on? Many of them probably have self service websites where you can update it yourself too.

Really not sure what the point of rebuilding your trading PC from scratch is, besides guaranteeing another machine ID change.

[xiinteractive]

Why not just tell your 3rd party indicator vendors the new machine ID and move on? Many of them probably have self service websites where you can update it yourself too.

Really not sure what the point of rebuilding your trading PC from scratch is, besides guaranteeing another machine ID change.

Yep, Ive done that... a couple of times, my problem is that even again today I got a new NT MID... third day in a row...

As I said earlier, at this point, Im going to build again from scratch and Im going to see what I can do to get old trade data back.
Im hoping that building from scratch, not an upgrade, and reinstalling any custom scripts that I have from scratch ... Im hoping it will stabilize. Ive tried all the other solutions I could think of.

Also, I would offer an apology for my some-what-controlled anger in my last post. I have some strong opinions on this subject due to decades in my career, but I spoke sharply and I probably should have restrained my pointed criticism. So my apologies to you and to those at NT that I spoke critically of. I guess in my semi-retired years, I have become happily less professional, but that doesn't give me the right to be publicly critical of others. Hopefully they can "eat the hay and leave the sticks" so to speak and thereby see the facts and truths in what I said yet brush the critical statements aside.

[StoxFox]

This isn't exactly what you asked for, but it might be a suitable fix until Ninja gets their "feature request" bull in order.

Research Windows 10 IoT LTSC. This is supposed to be a stable version of Windows that's made for things like ATM machines, etc. that NEED stability over everything else. The updates are potentially less likely to mess with whatever is causing a new machine ID to be generated.

[Zinovate]

Please upvote me on this.

[AndyM]

Why not just tell your 3rd party indicator vendors the new machine ID and move on? Many of them probably have self service websites where you can update it yourself too.

Really not sure what the point of rebuilding your trading PC from scratch is, besides guaranteeing another machine ID change.

This is the best advise. Also if your 3rd party indicator is unable to be self served give the vendor a miss. If your 3rd party indicator vendor demands a fee for changing the license for each machine ID definitely give them a miss, that is the ultimate rip off as far as I`m concerned.

[NinjaTrader_BrandonH]

Hello Zinovate,

Thanks for your note.

I have added your vote to this feature request.

Thanks for choosing NinjaTrader!

[eDanny]

This is the best advise. Also if your 3rd party indicator is unable to be self served give the vendor a miss. If your 3rd party indicator vendor demands a fee for changing the license for each machine ID definitely give them a miss, that is the ultimate rip off as far as I`m concerned.

This is dumb advice as it would eliminate 90% of the vendor choices. Agree about machine ID caused fees.

[AndyM]

This is dumb advice as it would eliminate 90% of the vendor choices. Agree about machine ID caused fees.

Which will probably be a good thing, and make Ninjatrader work better for the users who use them.

[squarewave]

Always backup your ninjatrader folder... that way at the very least, will have access to your ATMs, templates, workspaces, etc.

I don't think machine ID is something that NinjaTrader is actually coding/calculating, but rather just referencing a value generated by windows, at least that's my hunch.

Also, what in the world are you doing to trigger your machine ID to change so frequently? I actively try to find ways for my machine ID to change on purpose with a secondary test pc. I've added hard drives, removed hard drives, adding ram, removed ram, swapped ram... none of that triggers a change.

Updating the BIOS did change the machine ID, but there are only so many of those a motherboard can require (and usually not mandatory).

I even tried reinstalling windows, and that didn't change my machine ID either.

I haven't had any Windows Updates trigger a new machine ID yet, apparently the more major updates "can" change machine ID. I would be very curious as to what versions you updated from, and updated to. And how many times this happened.

[brenthilburn]

I have 2 machines that I update manually with Windows update on a monthly basis... Thus far, I select every single windows update available and run them... And thus far, I have never had an issue... You know what is missing from both of those machines? One Drive... As someone who supports MANY NT installations every single day, when I find NT and One Drive together I usually find trouble for the end-user... Anecdotal evidence at best but a coincidence none the same...

[eDanny]

OneDrive may be part of the problem. I have many customers who have gone through 10 - 15 machine ID changes and many who never do.