Windows Updates causing NT8.1.x to generate new machine ID - unstable domino effect

[xiinteractive]

This morning I opened NT and could not trade because Windows Update had run and NT8 generated a new machine ID. So I went through the whole mess of updating my machine ID for my NT8. I also decided to go ahead and upgrade to latest NT 8.1.1.7... after some work to get NT8, data connections, and 3rd party tools working, all seemed OK at this point with NT 8.1.1.7.

I checked Windows Update again and had more updates showing... applied these, and now my NT8 Machine ID has changed again and I have to do all the 3rd party licensing and connections again. Now I have lost another day of trading because of a design flaw in Ninjatrader 8.

Yes, this is a software design flaw. This machine ID changing is out of control. It is way too sensitive for its native OS platform Windows which undergoes continual updates.
This over-sensitivity to OS updates and hardware changes makes my NT8 trading platform unstable. Ninjatrader needs to change the machine ID functionality to something appropriate for the operating system that the software is designed to run on.

Is there anything I can do to stop this form happening?
Does Ninjatrader have any plans to fix this?

[NinjaTrader_BrandonH]

Hello xiinteractive,

Thanks for your notes.

If your machine ID has changed, NinjaTrader 8 will automatically remove your username and password of the account connections and other sensitive information. This is a purposeful security feature.

NinjaTrader does not control your machine ID directly. Your machine ID is generated by NinjaTrader based on your PC's fundamental hardware (like RAM, motherboard, etc.) and fundamental software (BIOS/UEFI version, Windows updates, firmware updates, etc.).

If any of these items change, your machine ID is likely to change as well. There is no way to manually change your machine ID.

If your machine ID changes due to Windows updates, firmware updates, etc., you will need to re-add your username and password back into your account connection.

If your machine ID has changed and it is affecting your add-on licensing, you will need to reach out to the add-on vendors with your new machine ID.

That said, we are tracking interest in an existing feature request ticket for the ability to lock your machine ID in NinjaTrader so it is not affected by Windows updates, firmware updates, etc., and I have added your vote to this feature request. This request is being tracked under the number SFT-1992.

As with all feature requests, interest is tracked before implementation is considered, so we cannot offer an ETA or promise of fulfillment. If implemented, it will be noted on the Release Notes page of the Help Guide.

Release Notes — https://ninjatrader.com/support/help...ease_notes.htm

[xiinteractive]

Brandon:
Thank you for your response. Yes I am aware of the process and how changes to the PC or Windows, etc can change the NT8 machine ID. Your response is boilerplate and I've seen it as NT's response to other similar posts in this forum... so I didnt learn anything form your response, however, I am grateful that you responded quickly.

My issue here is that Ninjatrader actually does control the machine ID update process because Ninjatrader wrote the software that causes it to be updated. None of my other non-Ninjatrader software is having licensing issues today, just Ninjatrader.

My point is that how ever this security feature is designed and coded, it is way too sensitive for the Windows platform which gets updated all the time. And its is way too sensitive to hardware changes which can happen frequently because not just traders, but many PC Windows users are prone to upgrade their PCs with more RAM, new video cards, bigger storage devices, etc.
However this functionality is designed may have been fine years ago, but in todays computing environment, the PC and its software are going to change very often. I just looked in my Windows Update history and I see well over 20+ Windows Updates for 2023. I only made one hardware change to my PC earlier this year.

Brandon.... I spent a whole career in IT and almost 3 decades of that was in software engineering. I am well aware of what goes on behind the scenes in technology and the challenges to keep systems secure and stable. Your boilerplate response does not address my issue it just seems to make it a non-issue and absolve NT from the responsibility of providing stability in the software they are selling. NT giving a "not-my-job" response on this issue might work for non-techies but it wont satisfy customers who are technical and know differently. Please escalate this issue to a level where I can get an appropriate response.

Thank you.

[NinjaTrader_BrandonH]

Hello xiinteractive,

Thanks for your notes.

In general, we don't expect the values to be changing with software updates, but what we use to generate the Machine ID sometimes does not return the same values after an update.

Currently, this is how NinjaTrader was designed to work and in the Support department, we can put in a feature request which is handled by the Development team to implement into the platform as they see fit. Note that feature requests with a higher demand impact will be seen first.

I have submitted your feature request to the Development team for the ability to lock the machine ID so that when there's a Windows update in which the BIOS changes, the user doesn't have to update their third-party add-ons as noted in post # 2.

I have also submitted a feature request to the Development team for you for using something other than the BIOS information to generate machine ids in NinjaTrader Desktop. This request is being tracked under the number SFT-6041.

While there are current development tasks that are taking precedence at this time, this matter is still a priority to be addressed. I cannot offer an ETA for a change, but I can say that we are looking into a solution for this matter.

[StoxFox]

Call it what it really is, a bug fix. Not a "feature" to be requested.

[QuantKey_Bruce]

I'm not sure locking anything to a machine ID makes the most sense in a new world in which NinjaTrader is controlled by user entitlements. Wouldn't it make more sense to lock the code to a user account so that the user could use the add-on via any device they've logged into their account from? The NinjaTrader Desktop platform itself precludes logging into more than two such devices at once on the same account.

NinjaTrader has promised they are re-doing their add-on licensing mechanism to better support web (and in the future hopefully mobile) which don't use machine IDs at all, so hopefully, whatever they come up with will side-step all of this entirely and there will be no more machine IDs, or at least if there are machine IDs, they won't be the primary way licensing is done.

[xiinteractive]

Brandon - thank you for your response and your effort. Your suggested fix may have some benefit.... if/when I know when these updates happen. As it is, there are updates that happen that I am not actively making a choice to receive. I know there are settings for this and I can look into mine once again. However, locking the machine ID is, in my opinion, not the fix we as your customers are looking for. What we are looking for is a trading platform that is performant and stable.... and also secure. What Ninjatrader has done is conjured up some idea as to how to make the software that I paid over $1K for into something that is unstable and usable by me the owner. Personally I don't care about the security as much as I care about the stability and the performance.

The issue here is not that I as the user of this software need to be able to lock my machine ID ... which would be nice to just disable that "feature" as you call it (a feature that is buggy) and yes I would like to be able to just lock my machine ID... what I really want, and what a lot of users want, is to have whatever security you put into Ninjatrader to be implemented in a way that does not compromise the performance and stability of my system.... again that I paid over $1000 for and at times I am unable to use.

Prioritize stability and performance... let me worry about the security of my PC and my trading software.
As far as I am concerned, and there are no doubt many other Ninjatrader customers would agree, that this "feature" as you call it (@stockfox is correct it is a bug) and I would not miss it if you just removed it all together. You have a so-called "feature" that I really do not care about, that does not enhance my ability to trade, that is making the software that I paid for unusable, and causing my much frustration.

If I were to suggest to you how to fix it then it would go like this:
* users would have the right and ability to choose their own level of security between possibly 3 levels (or more if you wish)
* security functionality such as this could be selectable by the user and owner of the software. If this security feature is turned on, then I would be able to separately select via checkbox which system changes could impact the machine ID change (one check box for each of the things you mentioned that impact it... and very definitely include the ability to disable the sensitivity to OS, BIOS, UEFI, etc).
* users would have the ability to "freeze" the machine ID during system changes and then afterwards apply the system changes to the same machine ID.

You need to keep in mind that when this "feature" happens, that it is basically disabling my ability to trade. The fix is not just with Ninjatrader, it is also with any vendor that relies on the same (IMO ill advised) idea for security , the machine ID. And the way it happens, depending on what workspace loads after the change, that it may take several minutes to clear all the error dialogue boxes that are generated... it is a very frustrating experience to have this happen and have to sit there while it generates error after error. Its a real pisser man. If there is a way to disable it please tell me because I would disable it in a heartbeat. Its more trouble than it is worth. If you cant fix it, then just let me disable it or remove it altogether.

[NinjaTrader_BrandonH]

Hello xiinteractive,

Thanks for your notes.

This is a priority for the Development team to address and they are looking into a solution for this matter. I cannot provide an ETA for when this will be implemented at this time.

I have added your notes for the Development team to look at and take into consideration as they look into a solution to implement for this.

[xiinteractive]

on a related note, ALL of my previous trade data is gone (including all of my personal account history, all of my prop account history, and all of my SIM testing history).
Also ALL of my SIM accounts (used for testing strategies) are gone.
All my ATMs are gone.
All my custom Data Series configurations are gone.
Most of the marked up historical levels on my charts are gone, but the chart templates I have tried are present.

As a trader, I very much care about and rely on my trade history data... as any industry does.... This probably the 4th time I have lost all my trade history data.

100% gone. Zero like Ive never taken a trade ever.

Its a FEATURE you say.

Actually it is what the software engineering world calls an "ANTIFEATURE" and it is one full of BUGs.

What ever kind of priority you have assigned to this issue, I can tell you that IMO it is not high enough.

[adamdominikneill]

Please add my vote for this feature/ important fault fix.

[backtester831]

This morning I opened NT and could not trade because Windows Update had run and NT8 generated a new machine ID. So I went through the whole mess of updating my machine ID for my NT8. I also decided to go ahead and upgrade to latest NT 8.1.1.7... after some work to get NT8, data connections, and 3rd party tools working, all seemed OK at this point with NT 8.1.1.7.

I checked Windows Update again and had more updates showing... applied these, and now my NT8 Machine ID has changed again and I have to do all the 3rd party licensing and connections again. Now I have lost another day of trading because of a design flaw in Ninjatrader 8.

Yes, this is a software design flaw. This machine ID changing is out of control. It is way too sensitive for its native OS platform Windows which undergoes continual updates.
This over-sensitivity to OS updates and hardware changes makes my NT8 trading platform unstable. Ninjatrader needs to change the machine ID functionality to something appropriate for the operating system that the software is designed to run on.

Is there anything I can do to stop this form happening?
Does Ninjatrader have any plans to fix this?

Machine IDs randomly changing has been an issue with NinjaTrader for 15 years, so don't hold your breath.

It was a huge problem for me a few years ago because I relied on a Ninza place order at close of bar addon, and I had to keep emailing Ninza my new machine ID every month, it was ridiculous and made me miss a few good trading days. Only solution I found was ninja mobile trader vps so I moved my trading workspace over to it and the machine ID hasn't changed in over 2 years now. I tried aws and google cloud as well, but the machine IDs changed on those every time the machine was turned off.

I also had another custom indicator vendor that charged $100 per machine ID change, so the money saved from no longer changing machine IDs paid for the ninja mobile trader vps

[NinjaTrader_BrandonH]

Hello adamdominikneill,

Thanks for your note.

I have added your vote to this feature request.

[xiinteractive]

This morning I fired up my Ninjatrader and all the NT licensing and 3rd party licensing was intact and working.
Then I closed Ninjatrader and made only two changes:
* I made some changes in Microsoft OneDrive to stop syncing a few folders.
* I unplugged an external USB stick.
After I made the above simple changes, I reopened Ninjatrader and got the warnings for a new machine ID... my licensing is back to demo.. all my charts are throwing licensing errors for NT OF+, and my 3rd party stuff is all un-licensed again.

It appears that what NT expects of software changes (from what you said above) is not what actually happens. What has happened is that these recent Windows updates possibly created configuration changes to things like OneDrive and other configurations... and somehow NT8 thinks that it is on a different system and it has to invoke security measures to create a new machine ID.

I need to stop this NOW!
Not a year from now.
I need to be able to trade on a stable platform and this machine ID business always changing is unstable.

Of all the things you need to fix or develop on Ninjatrader, its hard for me to imagine one that has a larger blast radius than what has happened to my system in this episode which is now in day 3. seems to me that this one has the biggest blast radius...
This machine ID changing has in this case become a very destructive problem. Sometimes the fix is simple and can be done in less than 10-15 minutes, but in this case.. this time... its has cascaded into a huge problem that is going to take at least a whole day to fix and restore everything I had set up, and I am leaning toward a complete scratch and reconstruct.

I don't like to use superlative words much because I think they are not logical, but in this case I am going to use one

This machine ID business is UNACCEPTABLE.
And when combined with Windows updates and the impacted configuration changes, this makes my Ninjatrader UNSTABLE.

[backtester831]

This morning I fired up my Ninjatrader and all the NT licensing and 3rd party licensing was intact and working.
Then I closed Ninjatrader and made only two changes:
* I made some changes in Microsoft OneDrive to stop syncing a few folders.
* I unplugged an external USB stick.
After I made the above simple changes, I reopened Ninjatrader and got the warnings for a new machine ID... my licensing is back to demo.. all my charts are throwing licensing errors for NT OF+, and my 3rd party stuff is all un-licensed again.

It appears that what NT expects of software changes (from what you said above) is not what actually happens. What has happened is that these recent Windows updates possibly created configuration changes to things like OneDrive and other configurations... and somehow NT8 thinks that it is on a different system and it has to invoke security measures to create a new machine ID.

I need to stop this NOW!
Not a year from now.
I need to be able to trade on a stable platform and this machine ID business always changing is unstable.

Of all the things you need to fix or develop on Ninjatrader, its hard for me to imagine one that has a larger blast radius than what has happened to my system in this episode which is now in day 3. seems to me that this one has the biggest blast radius...
This machine ID changing has in this case become a very destructive problem. Sometimes the fix is simple and can be done in less than 10-15 minutes, but in this case.. this time... its has cascaded into a huge problem that is going to take at least a whole day to fix and restore everything I had set up, and I am leaning toward a complete scratch and reconstruct.

I don't like to use superlative words much because I think they are not logical, but in this case I am going to use one

This machine ID business is UNACCEPTABLE.
And when combined with Windows updates and the impacted configuration changes, this makes my Ninjatrader UNSTABLE.

Think you're going to have to find your own solution because the best you're going to get today is having your vote added to the request.

[xiinteractive]

Think you're going to have to find your own solution because the best you're going to get today is having your vote added to the request.

Thanks for your input @backtester831..... I am about to rebuild from scratch... everything.

I haven't been using Ninjatrader for 15 years, but if you are right then it is about time that they (NT) ESCALATE this issue to THE TOP PRIORITY FOR DEVELOPMENT .. enough is enough! I have been using NT8 for a couple of years since 2021, and although I have had my share of all the normal NT8 problems such as performance issues, I have not had any issue that was even close to being as big of a problem as this MID (Machine ID) thing has become for me recently. It is hard for me to imagine at any time in my 30 year career in IT primarily as a software engineer and software engineering leadership, that I or the company I worked for at the time would have ever allowed a problem that created this level of instability and cascading blast radius to continue unchecked. For the 2 years that I have used the Ninjatrader platform, I have been a big fan of the software for all of its capabilities even with the performance issues I have experienced, because they were all, with some effort, understandable and rectifiable. This issue however, is in my opinion, an issue of negligence on the part of decision makers at Ninjatrader because they have ignored a stability issue that undermines the integrity of the system, and the trust of their customer base. I do understand that the MID was created to support licensing of NT and products in the ecosystem and to assist in providing a level of security to the Ninjatrader platform and the user's data. However, what has come about is that this has become a defective ANTIFEATURE that the whole ecosystem relies on and experiences maleffects from. It may have been designed well for the computing world in which it was originally developed, but the underlying architecture of how it updates is very obviously antiquated in today's computing environment. I am baffled by the fact that NT leadership would allow this kind of a defect to continue without (a) giving their customers the ability to opt out of this defective ANTIFEATURE and lock their machine ID even if it were to mean that they temporarily could not import any new add-ons, and (b) to escalate these MID problems to the very top of their product development backlog and roadmap. If at any time in my software engineering career I had been in the line of influence or responsibility for a product that had an instability issue of this nature and blast radius, I would have personally deemed it as of a critical level and somehow managed to make it a must-fix top priority for my team.... and having the understanding that I do now about how hypersensitive this thing is and how combined with OS updates that it could compound the damage and friction level of customers, I believe I would have pressed for an emergency patch release to mitigate the effects of it and provide software owners with the ability to stabilize their own systems which they paid for. The fact that this has been ignored for 15 years erodes my trust in the product leadership/management team at NT and leads me to question the competence of who ever has for many years allowed this defect to continue unchecked. For NT leadership to continue to allow years to go by where customers and vendors have been impacted the way I have been in this episode is, in my opinion, incompetence and unacceptable.