Moving ATM Stops sometimes Closes a position & I can't fathom under what conditions

[brucerobinson]

and here again - exactly the same thing....
Enter Long with ATM Strategy, manually take off one contract when first target reached, manually take off second contract when second target reached and then click on DOM centre column a tick or two above Entry price to drag remaining ATM Stop up. Simple. But no, doing so Exits the remaining Contract, which appears to be (because Trade Performance says the execution was Target1 not Exit) because clicking on the DOM is dragging the Target1 down (from 2000 ticks above) rather than the Stop up (13 ticks below Entry).

The behaviour is the same in the many many posts above.

Under what circumstances can this be expected behaviour for the situation described? If explained, I may at least be able to find a way to work around it....

Bumpety bumpety please.....

[NinjaTrader_ChrisL]

Hi Bruce, Can you make a video of this using TinyTake and post it here? This thread has been going on for a while since I have taken it over, and we can come to a faster resolution if you can just show me what you are seeing through a video.

Kind regards.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Chris and thanks.
I am not clear about what you want me to record a video of when you say ‘this’. I sent a video to Kate 05-13. I've fwded that email to you now. The video shows, in principle, what I am doing when the problem occurs. It is a replication in market replay iirc of the first case reported. But the problem did not occur in market replay, hence is not recorded in the video. The problem is that when live, when you see me click on the DOM to drag the Stop up, doing so exits the final contract and Trade Performance says the Contract exited due to ‘Target1’. Which seems to suggest clicking on the DOM to trail the Stop is instead dragging Target1 down to where I’m clicking on the DOM below Current Price and thus causing it to Exit the Target1 Contract at Current Price when the Target1 value becomes equal to current price.

I cannot record this behaviour because I cannot replicate it. However, in principle I do the same thing day in day out I.e. very mechanical in nature in terms of actions, albeit discretionary in terms of where/when - Enter a trade using the same ATM, when the trade moves in my favour I manually take profit on the first then second contracts, and at some point start to trail the remaining Stop to somewhere between its initial location and current price. And sometimes doing so closes the trade, and according to Trade Performance the reason being Target1 execution

If I may, I suggest you watch the video, with the aid of the marked up charts I sent around the same time, and the narrative accompanying around that time. If you still cannot 'visualise' what is happening (i.e. the problem not sufficiently well described to be clear), then please come back for further clarification. I recognise that sometimes communication of the issue can be problematic. I would (respectfully) ask that you focus on the 'relative' positions of Stops and Current Price and where I click on the DOM to move the Stop to, to trail.
Unlike in the recording, when I click on the DOM with the purpose being to bring the Stop up to trail, ‘the problem’, when it occurs, is that doing so Exits the final Contract and Trade Performance shows this final Contract closed due to Target1. How can that be so? I clicked on the DOM below Current Price hence doing so should move the Stop up. At the time of doing so, the Stop was perhaps 100 ticks below where I clicked (can’t recall but I have already laid this out in earlier posts and you’ll see in the video) yet the target was well over 1000 ticks above Current Price and even farther from where I clicked on the DOM (below Current Price, in order to drag the Stop up).
Whilst I can’t replicate it in Market Replay, the ‘same thing’ happens repeatedly as reported - I click on the DOM with the expected outcome being to bring the Stop up with trade nicely underway. Usually it does. But some several times it doesn’t, the final contract exits and Trade Performance says this exit is ‘Target1’.

I wonder if it may be something to do with the logic that determines how the Stop is moved, and the relative distances between Current Price, Stop and Target. Pay attention to where the Target is when I click to move the Stop up (over 1000 ticks away), and where I am clicking relative to Current Price and Current Stop. How can the Exit be due to Target1 when Target1 is over 1000 ticks away. How can clicking below Current Price bring Target1 down and not Stop up? (if this is what is happening). But if not, how can the trade Exit with Target1 - Target1 is over 1000 ticks away at the time…. Any ideas?

I may be wrong on this, I am simply trying to be helpful relaying what I’m seeing. The problem appears to occur when Current Price has moved some considerable distance in my favour when I click to bring the Stop up, or conversely it doesn't happen if I do so when price hasn't moved so far.

Kate referred me to the logic in the Help file of how this is supposed to work, which I did not understand nor the rationale..... It seems to me, that if I click between Current Price and Stop, it should always move the Stop to that place - between Stop and Current Price in order to trail it. Kate suggested that this may not be so and it may be the Target that moves if closer to Current Price or the price clicked on the DOM, or some such. Whilst I cannot see the rationale (from a trader's perspective) for this being so, even if that is the logic employed, it is not the situation causing this because the Target is well over 1000 ticks above price so no way is the Target closer to 'anything'. I have described all this in marked up charts posted.

This has occurred again once or twice since my last post. I now work around it by manually placing a Stop Limit Order in the DOM instead of attempting to trail the ATM Stop and thus risk triggering the Target instead. If and only if price comes back to where I want my Stop to be, it triggers the Stop Limit Order placed there and thus cancels the ATM OCO Order.

Put another way - when you understand the specifics, and I've given several examples, price has moved X ticks in my favour, I click on the DOM at Z price between Stop and Current Price, please explain how it can be expected behaviour that doing so moves the Target down (thus causing to Exit because it takes the Target to 'below' Current Price) and not the Stop up. In what circumstance can that be expected behaviour?
If it can, and I were to understand it, I may be able to figure if I am doing something that meets those conditions - but I've already given examples of what I'm doing when this occurs.
If that is not what is happening, what is the explanation for exiting, and showing the exit was due to Target1 in Trade Performance? Certainly Target1 was not hit where it was located at the time, it was executed at what was the Current Price. I cannot see any situation in which what I am doing can cause the final position to close
Kind regards,

[brucerobinson]

Case closed out by Support offline, unresolved and unexplained