Moving ATM Stops sometimes Closes a position & I can't fathom under what conditions

[brucerobinson]

Hello Kate and thanks.
I will not use the joypad and macros and when I observe the behaviour without will report it.
However, as stated the joypad and its macros simply replicate mouse instructions as I have detailed. You are not addressing the issue of how NT8 can respond in the way it is, whether instructed by mouse click or macro. Typical Ninja deflection rather than addressing the issue. It is irrelevant whether the instruction is issued by manual mouse click or by macro.
You fail to address the issue I raised regarding ‘nearest Stop or Target’, nor explained the logic or Use Case of why it would be programmed in that manner.
Kind regards,
Bruce

[brucerobinson]

Hello Kate,
Please see attached screenshot.
I did not use any macro or joypad.
Price had moved to where you see the final exit Marker. At that time, I wished to move my Stop to 3733.00 (red pen area beneath price marker and on y-axis) so I scrolled the DOM to make this price visible in the DOM. I then clicked on the Price (i.e. Centre column).
Trade Performance shows Exit Target1.(set 2000 ticks above Entry, way farther away from either current price or price clicked than Stop)

So as I said above there was nothing to suggest macro or joypad as they simply replicate manual instruction. I won't call this 'eliminated' because it was never relevant, just time wasted confirming it is not nor was it indicated as a contributing factor. That has been confirmed.

Would you now kindly address the issue.
All other details remain as previously described such ATM Strategy etc.

You did not respond to my request for an explanation of how moving Stops is 'supposed' to work, re: 'nearest to price at the time', which whilst seems bizarre to me does not explain what is happening here in any case. If I have a better understanding of what is supposed to be happening there may be a better chance I am able to observe and contribute something which may go some way to identifying what is happening, rather than having to ‘reverse engineer’ when I don’t know what is expected behaviour. All the details are above.

The same behaviour is now replicated.

Kind regards,

[NinjaTrader_Kate]

Hello brucerobinson,

Thank you for your reply.

I've done some additional testing on the latest version, and it appears that if you're using the Dynamic SuperDOM, since hovering over the ladder will cause the price movement of the ladder to temporarily stop, this can result in the actual price at the time of moving the stop to be on the wrong side of the market. If you are on the incorrect side of the market, the stop will not be moved and the profit target will be instead, often being close enough to the current price in a fast moving market to be filled.

Here's a quick demonstration:

https://www.screencast.com/t/oD5atUYneSFm

Please let us know if we may be of further assistance to you.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Kate and thanks.
I have watched the video you attached. Thank you for doing this. Unfortunately it is not what I am reporting, although I am not sure what it is that you trying to show me. Firstly to say, I am using a Static SuperDOM, so if what you’re showing is related to the ladder halting whilst price has not or similar then we are so far apart in mutual understanding of what I observe we are as yet nowhere. Anyhow, I don’t see any point in going forward on behaviour related to a DOM type I’m NOT using. FYI I do not have Autocenter checked.


May I suggest as follows:
take the metrics I have provided for the two trades I have supplied.
Print out the screenshots showing Entry Markers and mark on the Stop and Target at Entry. Then, you will see the final Exit Marker at the time I clicked on the ladder. Note the price at which I clicked on the ladder. Note where the Stop and Targets were when I clicked, and the relative positioning of current price, target, stop and price at which I clicked on the ladder.

My contention is that the action of clicking on the ladder at the price specified should bring the Stop closer to current price, but to a location a country mile from being hit. What I am saying is the action is not trailing the Stop, it is bringing the Target toward the price at which I am clicking on the ladder which is the other side of current price and hence takes me out of the trade at current price.

I believe if you lay it out as I ask, you will see it bears no resemblance to the scenario in your video which seems to be a combination of market moving invisibly due to hover halt on dynamic DOM, choppy/fast markets and too tight stops or targets getting hit as a result, along with the market reversing unexpectedly.

If so, my scenario could not be farther from it. The Target is 2000 ticks from Entry, and despite price having moved in my favour is still well over 1000 ticks from current price. The Stop is now farther away from current price than ATM Stop distance at Entry as price has moved in my favour, and where I am clicking on the ladder is far away from current price. The instrument is ES which relatively slow moving and low volatility compared with your example. The two would struggle to be more dissimilar.

Simply put - if I click on the ladder in between current price and Stop, the Stop should move to where I clicked on the ladder. This is the question I raised when you answered it depends which is nearer and asked for further clarification, and again in my most recent post. The Stop, where I am clicking on the ladder, current price and the target are each tens if not hundreds and over a thousand ticks away from Current Price and each other when I click…

If I have Mis-understood something, please advise.

Kind regards,

[brucerobinson]

Hello Kate,
Please see attached marked up screenshots which I hope provide further clarity.
The first is to show where the ATM Strategy placed to Stop (13t blue horizontal line) and Target (2000t green horizontal line)
The red line is the ATM Stop moved below the last higher low bar, as the ATM Strategy was too tight for this Entry (see second screenshot).
The second is to show position of the Stop and Target relative to Current Price when clicking on the DOM, and where and when I am clicking on the DOM. Although I would not have been able to see current price on the DOM when scrolled to where I wanted to move my Stop to (the DOM isn't tall enough to display where current price is on the DOM due to the distance above desired Stop placement location), we know this from the chart, the Chart Market and Text etc. because it exits instantaneously at the current price when the DOM is clicked.

I hope this is now clear. The question is how can this be so?

Kind regards,

[NinjaTrader_Kate]

Hello brucerobinson,

Thank you for your replies.

What instrument are you using to replicate this?

I have been testing for some time and the only way I have been able to replicate this in the Static SuperDOM is if the price clicked for the stop to be placed at or above the current bid if a long position and at or below ask for a short position. This, however, doesn't appear to be the case on your chart unless there's an enormous spread for that instrument, so I would like to test on the same instrument you are using.

Thanks in advance; I look forward to assisting you further.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Kate and thanks.
The examples I have given you are MES, which is the instrument I trade most. I’ve seen it on ES, MNQ, NQ. I trade mainly the US Stock Indices and mainly ES so I believe occurrence is a reflection of frequency.

I’m afraid I don’t understand your comments ‘ if the price clicked for the stop to be placed at or above the current bid if a long position and at or below ask for a short position’ as I don’t understand the logic or why it would be so which I’ve asked for explanation. Not understanding does not help me figure out what is occurring.

I cannot imagine an instrument exist where spread could explain this.

Kind regards,

[NinjaTrader_Jim]

Hello brucerobinson,

Kate is out of the office at this time.

I recorded a video showing my test of Single Click Order Modification, in the Static SuperDOM. I believe Kate is referring to if you click on the current bid/ask price (still below the yellow Current Market price for Long position) and the stop loss is closer to where you clicked, the target will be grabbed to close the position.

In the video when I click on the blue bid price, the target moves and closes the position. (This is the behavior noted in the help guide.)

Other than this, I'm not able to encounter cases where the target is getting moved to close the position when we click closer to the stop loss

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Awn...w?usp=drivesdk

It may be helpful to test this in a clean environment, since we are not seeing the issue you mention when we test.

Clean Environment Test:

Creating a clean environment can be done by following the steps below:

1. Close NinjaTrader 8, and rename the "NinjaTrader 8" folder in My Documents to something like: "NinjaTrader 8 OLD" Do not delete this folder.
2. Uninstall NinjaTrader from the Windows Control Panel
3. Delete the C:\Program Files (x86)\NinjaTrader 8 folder
4. Reinstall using the installer from http://ninjatrader.com/PlatformDirect
5. Add the required indicators and test the template.

If you ever need to switch back to your original platform, you may do so by closing NinjaTrader and swapping the platform folder names.

For example, Close NinjaTrader and rename the new "NinjaTrader 8" folder to "NinjaTrader 8 NEW" and the "NinjaTrader 8 OLD" folder to "NinjaTrader 8." Then restart the platform. Simply put: NinjaTrader 8 will always load the "NinjaTrader 8" folder in My Documents.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Jim and thanks.

I've watched your video - it is helpful to understand what you are 'thinking' about the problem.

Unfortunately I believe we have a complete misunderstanding of what I'm observing. I'm guessing you picked up what Kate had answered, and sought to give some clarification to it with the video. With respect, either I am missing what Kate/you are 'getting at' (quite possibly) or Kate/you aren't getting what I'm trying to relay to you.

It seemed to me Kate 'had in her mind' what the problem could be (something to do with dynamic DOM dancing around). You've replicated the 'concept' of what might be happening but on a Static DOM. I don't, even now, understand 'and the stop loss is closer to where you clicked, the target will be grabbed to close the position.' - either as a stand-alone statement or in the context of your demonstration. Maybe I'm just not 'getting' either of you, but for me we are so far apart it just doesn't make any sense to me - thus advance anything at all.

I wonder if you looked at the attachment i provided for Kate to better define the problem, or rather/simply sought to assist by demonstrating by video what you thought Kate intended.

If you have not looked at my attachment may I ask that you do so.

If you have, then I can't see the relevance of what you're demonstrating. You seem to be taking a specific case of clicking on the actual bid/ask price on the ladder. Both your and Kate's 'contextualising' of the issue being something to do with clicking when near the current or bid/ask price could not be farther from the situation under which I am finding an issue - which is what leads me to believe your not 'getting it', or (also possible) I'm not 'getting you'.

When what I'm experiencing happens, I am so far away from current or bid/ask and my target I can't see why you're giving me such scenarios. But maybe I'm missing your reason. One thing to be absolutely certain about is that when this occurs, I am not clicking anywhere near current price.

May I ask that if you have not, please take a look at the last 2 attachments and look at the location of Stop, where I'm clicking on the DOM, Current price/bid/ask (irrelevant imho) and target.

The majority of the time, when I click on the DOM to move the Stop, it does so as I expect it to. I still don't understand the wording in the Help file and to the extent I do I don't understand why it would be so.

But the question I would posit, is, how can doing what I've described with the relative positions of Stop, price, place clicked etc. cause the Target to exit the position? Can it? As far as I'm concerned I'm always doing the 'same thing' - Enter, price moves, when it is appropriate I click on the ladder to trail the Stop. And usually it does exactly as I expect and has done so a million times before. But very occasionally (but twice in the duration of this Ticket), I click and bang I'm out of the trade. And I've noticed Trade Performance says Exit was Target1.

I can't replicate, and thus send a video.

Turning the question on its head - under what circumstances - with the Stops, Targets etc described, could I do something (what?, clicking on the DOM where? My feeling is it has to be something to do with relative positions of price, stop, target, where I am clicking price-wise, because that is the only thing that changes from trade to trade 'in essence'. What I 'do' is pretty simple and repetitive: I put on a position per the ATM, it moves in my favour, I click on the DOM between Stop and Current Price to move the Stop closer to price and usually it works, but once now and again I'm out of the trade, how come? - but I could be completely wrong on this) which would cause the trade to Exit 'by Target1'? How could that be caused? (I'm quite happy to believe I'm doing something differently when this occurs, but don't know what that could be. Any ideas under what circumstances this would be possible? I can't, but I can't understand how and why it is programmed either, the help or what 'and the stop loss is closer to where you clicked, the target will be grabbed to close the position' means either!!

Kate/you seem to have the impression it has something to do with clicking bid/ask, spread or whatever. I don't understand why but may be missing it.

Kind regards,

[NinjaTrader_Jim]

Hello Bruce,

Yes, I had reviewed the attachment and I read the thread before replying.

The purpose of the video was to show the expected behavior that we are seeing, and that we are not seeing the target move in any other case other than what is detailed in the Help Guide:

Once enabled, to modify Stop Loss and Profit Target orders click in the center/PRICE column. Clicking in the PRICE column on the BID or above when long will adjust your Profit Target order prices, below the BID will adjust Stop Loss order prices. Clicking in the PRICE column on the ASK or below when short will adjust your Profit Target order prices, above the ASK will adjust your Stop Loss order prices.

^ I only see this behavior. If I am long and I click the bid price or above, the target moves to close the position.

I understand that in your case, you are not clicking on the bid/ask prices. We do not see this behavior when we test (either in the Static or the Dynamic SuperDOM.)

I cannot reproduce behavior where you click below the bid, the target moves and closes the position. If I click below the bid, the stop moves.

Did you perform the clean environment test and test using the Simulated Data Feed to be sure you are seeing the same thing we are with a clean installation?

(If long, clicking below the bid moves the stop, clicking at the bid or above moves the target.)

[brucerobinson]

Hello Jim and thanks.

“^ I only see this behavior. If I am long and I click the bid price or above, the target moves to close the position.”

I presume with the Up marker you’re saying you only see the behaviour you’ve quoted from Help. I’m afraid I still don’t understand the next comment. If you’re long and click the bid or above, I don’t understand how the target moves to close the position.

“(If long, clicking below the bid moves the stop, clicking at the bid or above moves the target.)
The two quotes re: long and click at the bid or above are identical, one says moves target, one says moves target to close position (the latter I do not understand).

“to be sure you’re seeing the same thing we are….”. As I’ve said, the vast majority of the time it works as I expect it to - click on price between DOM and Stop & it moves Stop to where I clicked. I don’t need a clean environment for that, that is how I see it behave, how you have described. Except when it doesn’t. Which is twice in the duration of this post.

The question is why, when I did what I described in my attachment did it result in an exited final position, which Trade Performance shows as exited Target1.

Kate mentioned earlier that whether Stop or Target moves depends on which is nearest to where you click (irrespective of which side of current price). I could not understand the logic to this, but given the distance of my Target I do not believe this could be relevant anyhow - the Stop will always be closer.

Perhaps it will help if you can clarify the above re: ‘the target moves to close the position’ - I simply don’t get this.

Kind regards,

[brucerobinson]

Hello Kate/Jim,

Some further feedback FYI/FWIW. I suggest you take a look through my thread of yesterday because I believe may be relevant to this thread, at least to know consequences https://ninjatrader.com/support/foru...dlines-missing

To summarise - finding that an ATM Strategy has 'removed itself' from a DOM is nothing new to me or this Forum. Early on in this thread I mentioned what I am reporting is not unique to one instrument/DOM/ATM Strategy i.e. I have 4 instruments up always and their respective charts, DOMs etc are duplicates. I provided examples of the behaviour on ES - but had also experienced it on NQ - less frequently, but the behaviour is infrequent, and I place more trades on NQ than ES so it is coherent that it would be.

The ATM Strategy template used on NQ is a duplicate of that used on ES, only difference being larger Stops.

Reflecting, I am fairly certain that when I experienced this unusual behaviour which appears to be closing out a position by clicking on the DOM resulting in dragging a Target when it should drag a Stop, I would find the ATM Strategy 'None' on restart thereafter. I just hadn't linked the two. Can't be certain, might not or be coincidental - certainly can't replicate at will, but I will be on the lookout. Finding a DOM with ATM Strategy no longer selected for no apparent reason is not an unusual event (and is heavily reported by others on this and the NT7 Forum). Usually it is of minor consequence as it simply results in one unprotected contract entered, usually immediately spotted. Workaround is it is becoming habit and practice to check the DOMs on launch of NT, and if/when there is any other unusual 'Order/DOM related' activity..

So what we have is unexpected behaviour of an ATM Strategy per apparently closing out by moving Target when Stop should be moved (although I still don't have a clear answer from you on how this 'should' work re: which is 'nearest' to the click for which I asked clarification early on in this thread, and must have the possibility of being related), subsequent 'removal' of ATM Strategy selection in DOM on that same instrument, and subsequent gridlines, colour of Data Series Price Marker reverting to Default and apparent failure to Save/Display Drawing Objects which upon reboot of platform all reappeared - ones saved earlier that disappeared and ones added that would not save, although in fact they were doing so. A right old mess.

The above is 'FYI'. I should also say, FYI, that the Topic of this thread re: ATM behaviour pre-dates 26.0. As I said I've noticed it several times on both ES and NQ over some time passed but very infrequently. I believe it has become more frequent, frequently enough to be able to describe it well enough to be bothered to report it.

Re: 'Clean environment test' - I understand the objective. However I'd like to get clear in my mind the extent of what this will entail before embarking. I'll have a fresh install of the platform and no User adaptations - customisations or additions. What will I be able and need to copy as Folders from MyDocuments, and what will need to be imported and configured? For example, Importing add-ons one at a time and furthermore setting and saving each's Template Settings is a significant workload, copying the Folder is not - but I don't recall where User settings are stored..... Ditto on everything else User-specific stored in MyDocuments such as Chart Templates, Workspaces and, oh, ATM Strategy templates..... What will, and won't, restoring a BackUp restore in this regard?

Re: current download link - if this is to 26.1, (don't have my Licence Key with me) I had decided (and see nothing to change my view since, rather to the contrary) not to move up from 26.0 as moving from 25.0 to 26.0 did not seem to bring about any immediate problems (and rather felt I seemed to have dodged a bullet). There also seem to be issues with rolling back to 25.0 once moved to 26.0 re: earlier databases. All too complex and fraught with risks to end up down that rabbit hole

Workaround - it is quite clear to me that this 'problem' is due to bug(s) in the platform to do with Orders, ATM etc. Whether anyone can or is minded to piece anything together from the various behaviours including yesterday's that helps to identify where they are, time will tell. Meantime, it seems to me that it may be behaving as if there is no Stop when I click on the DOM, hence drags the Target, to 'behind Current Price' which Exits Target1 (notwithstanding the 'whichever is closer' issue, unanswered). As may be obvious, the Targets are only nominally there largely because I assumed a blank Field would not be accepted (vaguely OCO in my mind I guess). I find this is not so and indeed the Target Field can be left blank and thus the Target cannot be executed inadvertently howsoever caused and Exit the position (in the absence, the behaviour if/when replicated may shed further light on what is going on. If it isn't replicated, problem solved). It I were to use the Target I would always move it manually according to market conditions and can simply place an order on the DOM instead. Can you think of any implications of not entering a Target in the ATM Strategy of which I ought to be aware?

KR

[brucerobinson]

Update - same again yesterday. Entered trade on ES @NYO, a couple of hours later went to trail Stop by clicking on price ladder between Current Price and ATM Stop, price having moved 100 ticks or so. Exit by Target1.
May not be reproducible at will but it certainly is repeated

[brucerobinson]

Well I’ll bump this again, seeing as the same behaviour has occurred since my last Post and again today. Just as I reported at the outset and subsequently in detail - namely place an order with ATM Strategy specified, price moves in my favour and take partial profits, one Contract remaining. I click on the DOM above (Long trade) the Stop and instead of trailing the Stop up to where I clicked on the ladder, doing so Exits the trade at Current Price (apparently by dragging the ATM Target down to where I clicked rather than Stop up, given Trade Performance shows the Exit to be by Target1).

Under what circumstances can this be expected behaviour?

KR

[brucerobinson]

Bump. Bump.