Strategy Account vs. Brokerage Account

[r2kTrader]

Bertrand,

Attended, or unattended, we clearly need a solution to manage strategies and connections. That goes without saying.

Obviously, one of the key features with NT is the fact that it can do things "automatically" and "programmatically". So having to write vbscripts and run hot key macros is so 1990's.

Is there any further insight you can offer in regards to how to programmatically manage a strategy so they can be "restarted/rebooted" if they are taken offline for any reason?


Thank you,


r2kTrader

Hi, I can understand your desire for a black box auto trading solution, but we generally advise that NinjaScript strategies should not be left unattended for various reasons.

We will make a continued effort to provide infrastructure allowing for black box trading in the future, information about upcoming features will be made public when available.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

Bertrand,

Is there any further insight you can offer in regards to how to programmatically manage a strategy so they can be "restarted/rebooted" if they are taken offline for any reason?


Thank you,


r2kTrader

Hi r2kTrader, unfortunately not more than already discussed or below.

Here's a reference how to halt a strategy - http://www.ninjatrader-support2.com/...ead.php?t=4804

For order rejection handling, you could check this link - http://www.ninjatrader-support.com/H...rHandling.html

Other then working with those, I would suggest waiting for NinjaTrader 7 which will adress strategy persistence issues as mentioned.

[skynetman]

Hi, I can understand your desire for a black box auto trading solution, but we generally advise that NinjaScript strategies should not be left unattended for various reasons.

If someone can be at his pc 24/7 then he is a PRO, then he probably uses some other pro software and does not need NT

If someone has a work and can't be at his pc 24/7, then he needs a "black box auto trading solution" that he can trust else he has to go back to old end_of_day/night chart analysis, but then he would be more than happy with a free service as stockcharts as real time strategies are out of question.

In both scenarios there would be no market for NT.

Hoping in v7

[NinjaTrader_JoshP]

skynetman,

As we have discussed, NinjaTrader was never designed to be a black box system and we never recommend you leave a strategy unattended. If this is your requirement then unfortunately NinjaTrader simply may not be the best software for your needs.

[r2kTrader]

Josh,

I am going to respectfully call you out on this. As per your website:

http://www.ninjatrader.com/webnew/futures_trading_platform_solutions_automatedtrading.htm

Battle tested live order execution capabilities ?

Whether you run external strategies in TradeStation or want the added performance of running native NinjaScript® strategies, you can rest assured that NinjaTrader is a reliable, battle-tested, and industry proven execution platform to automate any strategy in both live and simulated real-time market environments.

---and---
We fully understand the need to have a stable platform that can automate strategy execution and handle live operation realities such as high frequency tick processing, order rejections, connection loss and unexpected broker API behavior all of which NinjaTrader addresses reliably.

---

I will stop there as I could cherry pick the whole page and paste it here. I am going to accept that NT7 will address the majority of the concerns being raised here and elsewhere in this forum.

You can't advertise that you are an autotrading solution that is battle tested when you can't fire up a strategy after the system crashes, lol. I mean let's be honest about this.

All in all, I love the support, the product and the rest of what NT offers. I can even accept the frequent crashes and bugs, etc. because once everything is setup and ready to go I don't think it will be a critical issue. Furthermore, I can script this to reboot at certain times and give it a nice clean slate at a pre-determined time (but not without being able to automatically load a strategy etc.)

Is there any namespace or methods you could refer us to that are not documented? Is there a command line sequence we can call that will load ninjatrader.exe with a certain strategy? Surely there has to be some way to automatically start a trade strategy.

Keep up the good work. I don't mean to be a pain in the arse, but I also can't accept the answers I have been reading in regards to this issue. NT's team is better than that I and I hold them to a higher level of accountability. Let's get this strategy piece right in NT7 and you can hold me to no less than 2 lifetime licenses (I would like to run two boxes and have the be redundant. Perhaps that could be an option? Just like you can talk to TS, why not have to NT boxes in sync so if one goes down, the other will manage the trade account. This would be great for many reasons. It would also allow NT a great opportunity to offer a hosting service on a VPS based system using something like VMware or the like?? This way I could have my system running at my office and have it tethered, synced with the hosted version and I can make one master one slave and have a much higher level of reliability.)

This way I could buy the lifetime licenses and pay a month service fee. If you are not interested in provided this service, please contact me directly and I would like to discuss how we could provide it in cooperation with NT and in within the proper licensing guidelines.




Thank you,


r2kTrader

skynetman,

As we have discussed, NinjaTrader was never designed to be a black box system and we never recommend you leave a strategy unattended. If this is your requirement then unfortunately NinjaTrader simply may not be the best software for your needs.

[NinjaTrader_JoshP]

Running automated and running as a black box are completely separate things. Automation does not imply and has never been advertised as a black box solution.

NinjaTrader handles high frequency data and strategy algorithms exactly the way it was designed. Syncing your strategy to your account position is something you need to manually ensure. We have already linked you to the information that explicitly outlines how you can do these procedures. We have also already mentioned that NT7 will provide additional features to further help in the syncing process. To wrap things up, NinjaTrader never recommends running strategies unattended.

[skynetman]

Josh saying that is like saying that i should keep my computer speaker on while watching TV and run to the pc everytime a strategy executes an order or NT loses a connection....
And that is exactly what i had to do

[NinjaTrader_JoshP]

skynetman,

Unfortunately I do not know of any clearer way to present this information. NinjaTrader NEVER recommends running a strategy unattended. Automation and unattended are not the same. Unattended implies the use of automation while on the other side, automation does NOT imply being unattended. There is a very distinct and clear line differentiating the two.

[r2kTrader]

Lol, ok, let's drop the word "Black box". Let's just say autotrading. The same issues still stand.

Running automated and running as a black box are completely separate things. Automation does not imply and has never been advertised as a black box solution.

NinjaTrader handles high frequency data and strategy algorithms exactly the way it was designed. Syncing your strategy to your account position is something you need to manually ensure. We have already linked you to the information that explicitly outlines how you can do these procedures. We have also already mentioned that NT7 will provide additional features to further help in the syncing process. To wrap things up, NinjaTrader never recommends running strategies unattended.

[NinjaTrader_JoshP]

r2kTrader,

There is no more information I can provide you guys.

[r2kTrader]

Josh,

Skynetman has a point. Obviously, the benefit of an auto strategy is that it will working automatically and hence reduce or remove human involvement. This forum is a good example. I am sure you have hiccups, but generally it runs and performs a service as expected.

NT7. Got it.

Also, any comments regarding redundancy (multiple NT boxes running in master/slave mode to offer another layer of protection?)

Also, XMPP protocol integration? Please consider.

I'll drop it but keep the thread alive to design a work around. From what I have found, the best option we have right now is some vbscript and some mouse macros while keeping the screen consistent. I tried it and was able to start a strategy.

1. We have vbscript done that can make sure thread/ninjaTrader.exe service is completely killed.

2. We can force a disconnect / reconnect with AutoHotKey.exe

3. We can fire up a strategy using AutoHotKey.exe, while being careful to make sure the screen placement is the same. Ideally, it would make sense to have a fixed workspace that is stripped down and opens the control panel the same way every time for your autotrading box.

4. We call into action said solution using a streamwriter method to fire messages to a file that AutoHotKey.exe polls.

5. Need help to get syncing for strategy in order. I have not addressed this yet. I'm sure Skynetman is willing to test as am I. I want to go live. I don't mind leaving unattended if I know I can get feedback out of band (outside of ninja).

Josh saying that is like saying that i should keep my computer speaker on while watching TV and run to the pc everytime a strategy executes an order or NT loses a connection....
And that is exactly what i had to do

[NinjaTrader_JoshP]

There is no master/slave mode. I do not know what XMPP protocol is and is likely not supported.

[r2kTrader]

Syncing

Ray,

Would we be able to sync price if we did something like this?

We made a text file, put in a single line and set it up as historical data. Perhaps we make a MarketReplay file with just a single line or something like that. For lack of a better explanation, could we setup a dummy feed with exact dummy data that we want to get filled at and then INITIALLY ONLY connect to the dummy feed, fire the market order, then have our strategy set to original price.

1. We can get original fill price.
2. We can streamwrite to a file with said price in format that will be seen as a datafeed.
3. We can set dummy datafeed to have backup feed which would be our real primary feed. Upon getting our fill, we kill the dummy feed after loading our real primary feed.

What do you think, is this technically possible or close to possible? If so, it would give us a way to sync completely. A bit ugly, but if it works, a solution none-the-less.


Thanks,


r2kTrader

If you have to enter a position to sync your strategy --> 99% it will not be the price as it may have been calculated historically, this is just how it is.

Regarding programatically synchronizing, this is on our list for future consideration.

[NinjaTrader_JoshP]

r2kTrader,

Text files are not seen as data feeds. If you want to feed some data you can try External Data Feed. NinjaTrader will not distinguish your "dummy" data from real data. Whatever it gets is what it considers as real data.

[r2kTrader]

Josh,

So theoretically, this would work then?

Can you give me syntax, format for an external data feed? I will do homework in the meantime.


Thanks for the prompt reply. I don't care if it's pretty, I just want to have it automated. I don't mind having a failsafe shutoff (which I can do via my broker with a daily loss limit) and monitoring remotely as I will have this on a hosted server.

XMPP btw is aka the Jabber protocol. Ninja could benefit greatly from including an API for this. Presence detection, etc. and ability to communicate with any Instant Messaging system would be great for indicator and strategy developers. I am sure NT has own protocal for said communications, but XMPP would allow a nice layer of features, particularly for notification and perhaps for redundancy.

A slave / master model would be an interesting idea.


thanks, going to do homework on a dummy data feed. First glance tells me it might be easier to build a dummy market replay with a dummy date. But then it probably won't hold the fill as it will be linked to the market replay connection.

I don't know where to begin on building an External Feed. Is there a generic protocol I can use? I could pound out a simple tcp dilio that would spit back a tick after polling a file to get the fill I am looking for. I just don't know where to begin building an external datafeed.

r2kTrader,

Text files are not seen as data feeds. If you want to feed some data you can try External Data Feed. NinjaTrader will not distinguish your "dummy" data from real data. Whatever it gets is what it considers as real data.