NT7 Release questions

[roonius]

So Ninja 7 will be sent to your NinjaScript development partners.. First. I hope the following week it will be released to the public for beta testing. Otherwise what are we waiting for, your issues will still come from the actually users of the software. Your ninja partners also need feed back from users. USERS testing is key. Do you have a PUBLIC release date?

From my communication with Ray and other NT staff I understood that NT7 Beta will be public, however it might be released first to NT partners because we asked so.
I and other partners asked that Beta would be released to NT partners at least 2-3 days before public for the following two reasons:

1. To check if existing third party indicators/strategies/addons are working with NT 7.

2. To have those 2-3 days for getting familiar with new features and be better prepared for questions coming from public.

I bet the day NT7 will be released, every NT partner will get a lot of emails with questions, requests, complains etc.

The above are the only reasons for NT possibly being released to partners first. If it will happen so, I think public release will follow within few days.

Thank you Ray and NT staff for your hard work.

[richa61416]

If that is the case, 1 week may not hurt, if it is for the purpose of getting familiar with the new product. However it would appear that the developers of the software have not yet learned how best to distribute a new version of software, people skills are important. I can wait a week, but still feel like they over promising, and cannot deliver, hence DELAY tactics.

[JS999]

If that is the case, 1 week may not hurt, if it is for the purpose of getting familiar with the new product. However it would appear that the developers of the software have not yet learned how best to distribute a new version of software, people skills are important. I can wait a week, but still feel like they over promising, and cannot deliver, hence DELAY tactics.

I agree. If it's just a few days to a couple of weeks delay to let NinjaScript partners test it, then why not just say so? Ray's own quote in this thread is:

"We do not have a public release date at this time however, we will have more concrete information around the end of this month."

That doesn't sound like it's only a few days delay. So either roonius is guessing and it's not a few days delay, or else Ray is crazy for not telling us straight out that it's just a very short while longer, and saving himself all of this trouble on the forums. Something doesn't add up...

[roonius]

I agree. If it's just a few days to a couple of weeks delay to let NinjaScript partners test it, then why not just say so? Ray's own quote in this thread is:

"We do not have a public release date at this time however, we will have more concrete information around the end of this month."

That doesn't sound like it's only a few days delay. So either roonius is guessing and it's not a few days delay, or else Ray is crazy for not telling us straight out that it's just a very short while longer, and saving himself all of this trouble on the forums. Something doesn't add up...

I am quessing that there is not going to be more than a few days delay between "partners release" and "public release".
When the "the first release" will happen - I don't know. Let's wait until NT will give us more info.

[zoltran]

I think you guys that have such high expectations need to give your head a shake.

1. I's a BETA. Yes, BETA. Gonna be bugs, And I'm sure the howlers will complain.
   
2. Nobody should be thinking about production use of a trading platform until it's out of beta. ...which will probably be late this year.. so set expectations realistically.
   
3. Betas in many products have very restricted distribution.
   NT posts them when they are ready for all. This is to be commended.
   I doubt you would ever see a public beta for Tradestation like is done for NT.
   
4. Limited initial beta deployments are a good thing...
   
5. So many seem to have some very high expectations
   .. NY7 may be wonderful, but it's pretty easy to disappoint when expectations are so high
   
6. There's been little open disclosure on the feature set.. which I think was very wise on NT's part
   ... SW features can be a moving target .. and if something isn't quite ready, it's best to pull it. Which is harder to do if you've already announced it.

Lastly ..can we stop the venting ?
... We all know there are some problems .. but ranting doesn't help anyone.

Lets give it a rest. It'll be here when it's here.

Wes (A *paid* customer that's happy to wait for it to be done right)

Well that was a bombshell, 2 weeks ahead of a much delayed release. The disconcerting thing is that it appears that you think this is a normal and acceptable way to treat your customers. As you know, many people have been waiting for this release. And because of the repeated: "nothing changed, we're on track" mantra from the CS reps are going to be bitterly disappointed with NT.

Any shred of confidence still remaining is rapidly disappearing due to NT's failure to both deliver AND communicate to its customers. And I'm sorry but "I understand your frustration" maybe works once or twice, but isn't going to cut it anymore.

[JS999]

I think you guys that have such high expectations need to give your head a shake.

1. It's a BETA. Yes, BETA. Gonna be bugs, And I'm sure the howlers will complain.

We know that it's a beta... and I don't personally intend to use it for live trading. However, as things stand I currently have to run 3 separate copies of NT in 3 virtual machines just to get it to display a few range charts properly without lagging in real-time market conditions. For those of us that want to use it just for the extra charting capabilities while still running a trading copy of 6.5, it is very useful. I have a quad-core cpu right now that is only useful because I have split NT up amongst all these virtual machines. The performance improvements are also supposed to be significant.

Betas in many products have very restricted distribution.NT posts them when they are ready for all. This is to be commended.I doubt you would ever see a public beta for Tradestation like is done for NT.

That's not the point. I don't care if they made it a limited beta, but they should have announced earlier that it was going to be a limited beta. As recently as Monday in this thread:

http://www.ninjatrader-support2.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11432

NinjaTrader Dierk was specifically asked whether we would see a beta download available for 6/30/09, and his response was "Nothing has changed in that regard". Now two days later Ray says we have no firm date for a public Beta release. I don't care if they plan to release it to developers first, but they should have let us know that, instead of stating the exact opposite only 48 hours ago.

Lastly ..can we stop the venting ?
... We all know there are some problems .. but ranting doesn't help anyone.

Nothing ever changed without someone agitating about it first. The only "problems" here are NT's "we'll won't tell you anything until we feel like it" attitude, which is basically the same thing as telling your customers to stuff it. They just suddenly changed the release date without any apology or explanation, without even giving another estimate, and basically said "just shut up and wait a while longer, we'll tell you more when we feel like it". That's why people are a little upset, as I am sure you can understand.

[sunpost]

Nothing ever changed without someone agitating about it first. The only "problems" here are NT's "we'll won't tell you anything until we feel like it" attitude, which is basically the same thing as telling your customers to stuff it. They just suddenly changed the release date without any apology or explanation, without even giving another estimate, and basically said "just shut up and wait a while longer, we'll tell you more when we feel like it". That's why people are a little upset, as I am sure you can understand.

well said JS999.

I have the highest expectations that NT7 will be a revolutionary release. With the delays, why else wouldn't NT7 be anything less than sliced bread. I am counting on them including all the features requested over the last year and probably some new features that will push NT light years ahead of the competition.

[JS999]

well said JS999.

I have the highest expectations that NT7 will be a revolutionary release. With the delays, why else wouldn't NT7 be anything less than sliced bread. I am counting on them including all the features requested over the last year and probably some new features that will push NT light years ahead of the competition.

Personally I couldn't care less if they had any new features at all. What I am waiting for is a proper SQL database implementation (which they should have had in the first place instead of MS Access), multi-threading (which should have been in the version 6 release - I wrote my first multi-threaded program 12 years ago in Windows, so there's no excuse in saying the technology wasn't there), and the ability to load up symbols without taking a random chance that the attempt will crash NT and cause me to have to restart it. It would also be nice to have range charts properly implemented and optimized so I could actually have one open for scalping without worrying about extra lag from the poor performance overloading my Core i7 920.

I have seen plenty of other programs running more smoothly on less powerful hardware, and it's obvious that not nearly enough time was spent on performance optimization and testing in the last version - hopefully the next version will take care of these issues for the most part. You wouldn't see the types of performance improvements quoted on these boards for NT 7 over 6.5, unless NT 6 was badly designed in the first place, which it obviously was.

[sunpost]

I can't imagine it would take all this time to only add performance enhancements to a major release. I have confidence in the development team that they will deliver a surprise to the upside

[JS999]

I can't imagine it would take all this time to only add performance enhancements to a major release. I have confidence in the development team that they will deliver a surprise to the upside

I agree. I just hope that they don't make the same mistake as last time, spending all of their time adding extra features to a program that crashes and is slow. Features are nice, but for trading in fast market conditions, reliability and fast execution are 10 times more important.

[zoltran]

you guys just proved all my points.

[sunpost]

I don't see how your negativity about the upcoming release can be associated with my desire for great software. If I was a developer of NT7, I would be insulted by your points, thinking my work was not of high quality.

[zoltran]

Not negative at all.

Just trying to reset expectations to something a tad more realistic.

It will be what it is, and it will be ready when it's ready.
Complaining about it won't make a bit of difference.

[TraderEyal]

Not negative at all.

Just trying to reset expectations to something a tad more realistic.

It will be what it is, and it will be ready when it's ready.
Complaining about it won't make a bit of difference.

This thread just proves the point, no one really knows if it will be delayed a few days or a few quarters again. And the reasons are:

1. Zero transparency by NT
2. Misleading communication till the very last minute
3. Poor delivery track record

Zoltran, I guess some people have different expectations. Maybe you feel 2, 3 or 4 or 5 years delay is ok, maybe you feel getting promised a release several times and not getting it is fine. Everyone has different thresholds. I (a *Paid*) customer and many others feel this is not how a company should treat us.

Yes it's a beta, but did you think about what delaying the beta mean for the final version release? Time will somehow be magically made up for "late this year"? There is no point speculating about limited deployment and other such approaches because no one here knows if this is what we're really dealing with as NT has kept mum on this after the initial "announcement" on this thread leaving us all to guess instead.

I for one, believe this is just a cover for more significant release issues. I've managed enough software development projects in my life to "smell" a problem. If it were just a few days or 2 weeks we would have heard from Ray: "Great news guys, NT7 ships out the door to partners on 30th of June as promised. On 7th of July you're all invited to download the beta and help test and make it the best product ever." No one would have complained about that.

[JS999]

This thread just proves the point, no one really knows if it will be delayed a few days or a few quarters again. And the reasons are:

1. Zero transparency by NT
2. Misleading communication till the very last minute
3. Poor delivery track record

This is exactly the problem. I might add that this probably has to do with the fact that a lot of people have already bought lifetime memberships. With that type of business model, NT has very little incentive to do anything to keep you happy... after all, you can't get your money back, and they aren't going to be getting any more money from you. I suspect that very few people keep paying for this product for more than a few months without either dropping it or getting a lifetime subscription, which is exactly why you see this type of "like it or leave it" attitude from the NT staff. If they only had a paid subscription model and if everyone was contributing on a monthly basis to their bottom line, you can bet that they would be a LOT more responsive.

Yes it's a beta, but did you think about what delaying the beta mean for the final version release? Time will somehow be magically made up for "late this year"? There is no point speculating about limited deployment and other such approaches because no one here knows if this is what we're really dealing with as NT has kept mum on this after the initial "announcement" on this thread leaving us all to guess instead.

Personally my best guess for final release is late 2009. I just hope that the beta is reasonably stable, although with the way this has just been changed on us at the last minute I get the feeling that it's not quite as ready for prime time as I had hoped.... oh well, you can't change the facts on that one.

I for one, believe this is just a cover for more significant release issues.

Agreed.

I've managed enough software development projects in my life to "smell" a problem. If it were just a few days or 2 weeks we would have heard from Ray: "Great news guys, NT7 ships out the door to partners on 30th of June as promised. On 7th of July you're all invited to download the beta and help test and make it the best product ever." No one would have complained about that.

Yep, as a software developer, architect, and project manager with 15 years of experience I concur on that front. I've been a part of enough last minute development efforts where management expected us to perform miracles without enough resources to smell that problem from a mile away. Typically you end up pushing out half-baked code to make people happy, then spend the rest of the time fixing bugs after it's out. It happens in all development shops - take a look at Microsoft and Windows Vista... that's exactly what happened there 3 years ago when they released a half-baked OS before it was fully ready.

I won't name a small trading house that I once worked for in Chicago that made us turn on a live system with untested code only hours before the start of trading on launch day.... good thing I found that bug at 3 AM that had buys and sells reversed by accident! (And no, I am not kidding - these people were incredible idiots.) I've also seen one large trading company upload new versions of their API to a live server without informing their partners about it, resulting in broken code and downtime during live trading hours for said partners... it's actually scary how unreliable and untested some stuff is within the trading industry.

Anyways, it appears that NT has learned their lesson this time in pushing the release date back a few times, which is good... however, they really should be more honest and open with us. It would cost them nothing to tell us straight up that things are just taking longer than expected, and to give us that warning more than 2 weeks before the release date. Customers appreciate openness, honesty, and a show of respect from companies, and that is not what we have been getting from NT so far, probably for the reasons indicated in my first paragraph.